Susnan Friedmann (0:00:30) - Welcome to Book marketing mentors, the weekly podcast where you learn proven strategies, tools, ideas, and tips from the master. Every week, I introduce you to a marketing master who will share their expertise to help you market and sell more books. 

Today, my special guest is an entrepreneur, an author, speaker, and coach. Michelle Vanderpas has profound insights into living a life with purpose, meaning, and sharing your message. Through her company, Grace Point Publishing, she's helped thousands of authors in her 25 years as a publishing consultant. She has five bestselling books and pulls back the curtain to help nonfiction authors combine their purpose, mission, and books to elevate their platforms and profits. 

Michelle, it's an absolute pleasure to welcome you back to the show and thank you for being this week's guest expert and mentor.
 
 Michelle Vandepas(0:01:29) - Thank you, Susan. It's an honor to be here.

Susnan Friedmann (0:01:32) - So, as I said to you earlier, this is where the Colorado Mountains meet, the Adirondack Mountains. So I think that's quite fun that you live there in the Colorado mountains and the nature, and you love walking in the nature, and I do the same here in the Adirondacks. So I thought that was just a nice little thing that we have in common, as well as many other things. I know.

Michelle Vandepas(0:01:56) - Yeah.

Susnan Friedmann (0:01:57) - So, Michelle, you and I were talking earlier about the whole idea of marketing your message, and I know that that's something that's near and dear to your heart. And so many authors who I work with, they have their book, and when it comes to selling their book, it's all about the book. And somehow there's a little bit of, I don't know, forgetfulness about the fact that there is a message in this book. Talk to us a little bit about this whole concept of getting in and marketing the message as opposed to just marketing the fact that I have a book.

Michelle Vandepas(0:02:37) - Oh, what a great topic here, Susan.

I think what people sometimes forget is that they're here.

Usually we're talking about nonfiction authors.

People who do have a message, have some wisdom, have something that they really want to put out into the world to help inspire, teach, motivate.

Right. You have to give people little clips of that, little snippets of what it is you believe in, what it is your thought leadership is, what your message is.

If you are only just reading from the book or talking about your book, it narrows your audience.

Many people will listen to you, buy from you, hire you to speak, and never buy your book.

They may buy your book, but just the fact that you have a book on your particular topic, call it weight loss or trauma resolution or whatever it might be, you are an expert because you wrote the book.

And just because you wrote the book, other people will see you as an expert, and so they're expecting some leadership from you around that subject.

The more you can talk about whatever your subject is, the bigger audience you'll have.

The more speaking engagements you'll get, the more podcasts you'll get on, the more social followers, the more your email list will grow, and eventually the more books you will sell.

 Susnan Friedmann (0:04:11) - One of the things that comes up too, as you talk about the message is often that there's so much in a book that an author writes pinning down that poor message. Do you have some kind of formula or something that they can really pinpoint what the key message really is, that they need to be going out there to their target audience?

Michelle Vandepas(0:04:38) - I wish it were a formula. I ask a lot of questions. I'm a coach. Usually I'm like, well, what is the one thing you really want your reader to walk away with if they're going to walk away after reading this book, thinking about the book, what's the one sentence or the one thing you want them to think about? And I'll ask, why? And why? Maybe why again? And what is it underneath that? 

And then what is it you want them to do because of that? I use weight loss as one example. If you write a book about weight loss, and maybe you're taking the tactic that it doesn't actually matter if you lose weight and that's what you want them to walk away with, just to be happy with whatever body they have today, if that's what you want them to walk away with and go, what the value is underneath that, what you want them to do because of that and how you want them to feel about that, and then write a paragraph around that message and that might become your core message, but really is, how do you want your audience to feel? And that's probably true with selling anything.
 
 Susnan Friedmann (0:05:51) - Absolutely.

Michelle Vandepas(0:05:51) - That's how cars are sold. That's how red convertibles are sold to people in midlife all day long. It's how we want to feel after we buy something. How do we want to feel after we've watched a movie, after we've read something. And so I suggest that my authors start there. And if they've already written the book, what is it that you want to impart now, even if it's in the book or not in the book? Because it will help sell books, even if it's a slightly different message.

Susnan Friedmann (0:06:21) - Now, I think hitting on that whole idea of how do they want to feel and really tapping into that, that is key here because it is. We buy things based on emotion and then justify it with logic, right? We very rarely do the logic things. I mean, we think we're justifying it all the time just through our emotions, but it really is more of how it makes us feel. Let's talk about the marketing then. Where do you even start with this? I mean, there are so many different avenues to go out and market this message. What are some of the key ones that you promote to the authors who you work with?

Michelle Vandepas(0:07:07) - Again, I wish there was a formula that worked. I know you have a formula that works. When I work with authors, I usually start with, where are your clients now? How have you marketed now? What's worked and what hasn't worked? I encourage people who have never been on social media to choose one social media platform and not try to be all things to all people because they all have nuance. 

Oh, my gosh. X or Twitter is so different than LinkedIn. It's so different than TikTok. And you do need to really understand some nuance. So we start with, what do you already have, what marketing you're already doing? Do you have an opt in? Do you have an email list? Are you speaking? Do you network? Are you volunteering somewhere for people that volunteer, maybe at the humane society or in the school district that can upscale and up level and you can hit a bigger and bigger network that way. 

So I always like to start, what are you doing right now? Is it working or not? And then where do you think? If your book is about love your body as it is, where do those people hang out? What age are they? Are they TikTok users? Are they LinkedIn users? Are they YouTube? Or do they hang out at the library? If people still do that, like, where are your people? It's really going back to some marketing 101 tactics about understanding who you are and what's already working. And then the people that you're trying to reach, who are they and where do they hang out? And then there's got to be a bridge between the two. Sometimes it takes a little self-discovery to really dig in and find that bridge.
 
 Susnan Friedmann (0:08:48) - Yeah, I like the fact that you mentioned that social know, pick your lane, pick the platform that makes most sense that if your people are on LinkedIn, you don't want to be spending all your time on Facebook or vice versa or any of the other platforms. So I think that's key because so many people think that they have to be on every single platform and there's so much energy that's put into that, whereas it could be put into other forms of marketing. What about authors who don't have a list? What do you recommend there?

Michelle Vandepas(0:09:25) - I've worked with a lot of authors who say, I don't want a list. Don't make me do a list. I don't want to send out a newsletter. I'm done writing my book. I'm so over it. You can do anything that you're called to do in the world. You don't have to have a list. 

My feeling is you will move faster and better if you have a list, because it's still like, my daughter is not on email, but overall, people still do open emails. It may only be 10% or 20% of the people on your list open the email, but there are people who are not on social at all. And people still do read emails if they're interested in the content. So I do think everybody should have a list. I always hate using the word should. And if you really don't want a list, there are other ways to get what you want. 

You can just work LinkedIn full time and make a good living if you know how to do it. So this is my personal opinion, and it's not always a popular one. I do think that you have to go with where internally your energy feels expanded and wants to do it. If you wake up every day and go, oh, I have to work on my newsletter, the people reading it are going to feel that energy and they're not going to open the newsletter. And so you have to go with what feels exciting. 

Does Facebook or LinkedIn or TikTok or Google shorts or podcasts or going and speaking at your local chamber what feels exciting? Now I want to continue that conversation with, we all have to learn things to run our businesses, to market our books, to move to the next step, to be a thought leader, whatever your next step is, we all have to learn things we may not want to do. The differentiator that I lean into my clients with, does it feel like I don't want to do that? 

But I do know I need to. I get that if I break through this block, it's really going to help me? Am I a little bit scared of it? Does it feel a little intimidating? Then probably that's exactly where you should put your energy. If it just feels totally draining, then don't do it. But if there's a little bit of friction there, like, yeah, this would be good for me to learn it. Then I would encourage you to push through and learn whatever it is, be it public speaking, podcasting, LinkedIn, whatever, to go ahead and push through it and learn that, because probably there's gold at the other side.
 
 Susnan Friedmann (0:12:08) - I'm so pleased you said this, because this is one of the areas too, that I emphasize with my authors, is you have to enjoy what you're doing. There are umpteen marketing strategies and tactics, and it is overwhelming if you don't know and understand them. And some of them you just don't want to do as you said, they're energy suckers and you don't want that. You want something that is going to motivate you. Yes, break through something that sounds exciting and you've got that being scared and excited at the same time, which I understand is the same emotion, just interpreted slightly differently. But yeah, it's where is your energy? Because that energy is contagious. You want that.

Michelle Vandepas(0:12:59) - Absolutely. And going back to your email piece, if you know you need an email list for your business and you know that's true, and it feels like an energy suck, then automate it as much as possible. Get your opt in, get your funnels working, get your automatic responses going. Or the other thing you can do is just send out personal email every Sunday night or Thursday morning and just write three or four sentences to your community. It doesn't have to be this big, overwhelming thing about, oh my gosh, I have to write a newsletter again, and I have to sit down and write for 3 hours. You can make it so it's still effective in alignment with who you are and your energy and your time.

Susnan Friedmann (0:13:44) - Yes, I will say that having your own email list is gold dust. It's definitely worth it because you have control over your own email list. You can do whatever you want with it, obviously respect the people who are on that list. You don't want to bombard them with garbage. When you're on a social media platform, the algorithms and those platforms change all the time and you're in somebody else's hands, as they say, you're building a house on rented land, whereas when you build a house on your own land, which is your own Email list, that is much more secure.

Michelle Vandepas(0:14:26) - I love that, and I would say that's probably really good advice in all areas of your life, including writing your book, like build on your own land, your own thought leadership, what it is you want to say.

Susnan Friedmann (0:14:40) - Yes, I'm loving this. Talk to us more about how else can we spread that message. We've got the book. We've established what that message is. And what are the ways to make money? Because obviously this is usually the main reason white authors write books. They think it's going to make them a lot of money. But as we know, it's not necessarily the book itself that's going to do that. So what are your recommendations to authors?

Michelle Vandepas(0:15:11) - Yes, and usually the book will make money. But like you say, it's through speaking engagements, through offers, through courses, through connections, other things, consulting that you might get. The first thing is think, what is it the people who read your book want to buy from you. And even if it's not in the book, it's not too late. You can still position yourself. So think about if I'm walking away reading your book thinking I love my body, then maybe I want to buy how to dress for the body I have course. 

Or maybe I want to buy a self-esteem course. Or maybe I want to buy an eat healthier course. Who knows, right? But whatever it is for your audience, think about that, and then you have to do marketing to send people to whatever that offer is. Maybe it's a course. 

Maybe it's hiring you to come in and do consulting. Maybe it is one to one coaching or a mastermind. But think about the offer, and then all the marketing actually goes to the offer. And you talk about the book in such a way that you're positioning yourself as an expert because you are an expert, because you wrote the book on self-esteem and weight loss, for instance, the marketing can be speaking locally, can be talking to everybody. 

You know it. It doesn't become that you're out there selling to everybody, but you become so versed in what it is that you have to say that it just comes out in natural conversation all the time without being salesy or slimy. You can talk about it locally. You can talk about it when you volunteer. You talk about it on speeches, on podcasts like this, all the ways book signings set up coffee shop meetings. 

There's so many things big and small that you can do. Get on summits, get on virtual speaking engagements. I think the more you market when you realize that you're sending all that marketing to one thing, be it your offer, which will make more money than the book, probably in the short term, unless you're doing some bulk sales, like you talk about Susan, then you'll make money as well. 

But you just send all your marketing to one thing, buy my book or go to my website or do this or do that. And then you reach out and just talk about your message over and over and over again as much as you.
 
 Susnan Friedmann (0:17:39) - Can, and you become that. It's like you're the cheerleader for that message.

Michelle Vandepas(0:17:44) - Yeah.

Susnan Friedmann (0:17:45) - And people get to know you by that. They may not necessarily remember your name. Especially both you and I have got names that are somewhat hard to pronounce and they're both borrowed names. And so, yes, people might not remember, oh, it's that woman who does this, who sells books in bulk, who works with authors finding their message. So, yes, that aspect that people remember that they lock onto. I don't necessarily remember the person's name or remember the book's title, especially if it's got a catchy title, which evokes that curiosity as well. But again, it goes back to being excited about the book, about everything that you're talking about, speaking, training, coaching, all the things that you mentioned, a little bit more obscure marketing tactics or strategies that you use with your clients or recommend for your clients that maybe the average person might not know about.

Michelle Vandepas(0:18:53) - A couple of things. If you can partner with somebody who has a big email list, this is something that you and I know about, but not all my clients ever think about. Ask your friend who might have an email list. Ask your coach, your mentor. Will you email for me? That actually works pretty well, interviewing each other on a podcast, a Google short, something like that. So you are bringing in people with more influence than you might have to help you market your book, and you can rub shoulders with that person doing retreats, actually, just the fact that you say, I'm doing a retreat in Mexico or Costa Rica or whatever, people go, well, I can't afford the retreat, but I can't afford the book. I've had that happen quite a bit.

I've had people sell books that way because they're promoting something else, and it turns out they're selling their retreat. The thing that is the most unconventional these days that I find actually still works is networking locally. If you take your book into the local bookstore, you do book signings. You ask those people to leave you reviews. You've got personal contact with people that have met you, and they'll go and leave reviews for you. They will tell other people about the book. It's a little bit of a more slow burn. You're not selling hundreds of thousand copies at a time, but these days every review is valuable, especially on Amazon. 

And so if you can get an extra ten hundred reviews, eventually 1000 reviews, it will help the book. I'm a fan, I'm kind of coming back to a fan of do a few book signings, meet some people locally, see who you could meet locally, look at them face to face, sit down, have a cup of coffee, see how you might help each other, support each other. And while you're doing the big fast social media kicks or the email list, do some slow burn, old fashioned 1980s marketing.
 
 Susnan Friedmann (0:21:01) - I love that you brought up two things that I want to tap into and that is number one, local. I think this is something that so many authors just miss. That right on their doorstep could be a gold mine. Just the local media love local authors. They love local celebrities. And in a sense you are a local celebrity. You've written a book in a certain area, you're an expert in an area. Yes, why not? They should interview you, put you on in the newspaper. I'm in a small town. They are so hungry for information, I just have to give them a press release and they'll pretty much, maybe they'll change the headline, but the rest of it is verbatim, which is great. Now obviously it's harder in a larger city, but definitely if you're in a small city, milk that locally. And as you say, the local chamber of commerce or any of the local meetings, networking, take advantage of that.

Michelle Vandepas(0:22:09) - Here's another marketing thing. Your local bookstore usually will carry your book. If you're a local author, they may just take five of your books on consignment, but usually they'll carry it and usually they'll do a book signing for you. But here's where the gold is. You may not sell books, but you have your friend come with a high end iPhone and take great pictures of you signing books in the bookstore. That's golden.

Susnan Friedmann (0:22:36) - That's great. Yes. I mean, I remember one of my books, we've got a cute little independent bookstore here in town and they were all over having me be there and doing a book signing and they promoted it and put my book in the window and a big sign, one of those sandwich boards outside, come meet the author. It's great. It makes you feel like a celebrity even if you don't think you are in the beginning, right?

Michelle Vandepas(0:23:06) - And then you got the social proof, which is photos, which then you use in your newsletter and your website and in your social media and in all your promotions, and you haven't spent $10,000 for professional headshots and promotion and PR and all those kinds of things. You just have a few photos that show you signing a book.

Susnan Friedmann (0:23:28) - Yes. Great. The next thing I want to tap into that you mentioned was reviews. I think that's also something that authors find so challenging, is to entice people to leave reviews, be it on Amazon or anywhere else. Any tips? Anything you should or shouldn't be doing in this arena?

Michelle Vandepas(0:23:53) - Well, Amazon has all these rules, and it's been a lot of years ago, but I had one of my accounts get taken down where I had left 480 reviews for other authors, and Amazon just closed the account. I couldn't go back and contest it. I couldn't do anything because someone reported me for being in the publishing industry and I wasn't supposed to leave reviews. I don't know if that still stands, but I will tell you that Amazon still has all kinds of really weird guidelines for leaving reviews that don't always hold from person to person.

 I know other people in publishing and editors who leave reviews. I'm still a little miffed about it. In case you can my voice. However, having said that, if you buy the book from Amazon and you have bought other things from Amazon, and you've spent more than $50 from Amazon, and you've left other reviews for other books or other products, but especially other books on Amazon, and you leave a thoughtful review that isn't just five stars and you don't have the same last name as the author, chances are your review will get published. 

Having said that, if it's the first time all year you've bought anything and you have the same last name and you try to publish the review, Amazon may say, no, it's your sister not publishing it, and unfortunately, they have the right to do that. It's in their terms and conditions. They can choose which reviews to publish and which ones not to. And for small authors, it's really frustrating because every review matters.
 
 Susnan Friedmann (0:25:37) - Every review matters.

Michelle Vandepas(0:25:39) - It does. And it's getting more difficult to kind of get through that gatekeeping of Amazon reviews. And you're not allowed to bribe people. I see people do it all the time. But technically you're not supposed to say, leave a review and I'll send you a pizza. Technically, you're not supposed to do that. However, it is nice to say, please leave a review. We put it on the back of all our books. Please leave me a review on Amazon or wherever you bought this book. 

We ask for reviews. We tell people, just write what your favorite part of the book was and just write a sentence about that. It doesn't have to be a long, thoughtful review. People get intimidated, especially if they know the author. They're afraid they're going to say the wrong thing. So it's okay for you to say, I just need one sentence about your favorite part of the book or why you bought the book or what your one takeaway. It doesn't have to be long. And then if you are so inclined, you could write three or four templates on how to write an author review. 

There's lots of stuff out there. I've got stuff. You might have stuff, Susan, about how to write a review and send those to your email list and say, here's some ideas about how to write a review. Feel free to take these and rewrite it. You don't want the same review. Rewrite it in your own words and post a review for me. So those are my tips. Amazon's number one, but it's certainly not the only place Goodreads, Barnes and Noble. Other places are important, too, but Amazon tends to be the number one place that people look at for reviews.
 
 Susnan Friedmann (0:27:16) - Yeah, they think about it. And I go to Amazon reviews, too. I hate to admit it, but I do.

Michelle Vandepas(0:27:24) - Right?

Susnan Friedmann (0:27:24) - Especially whenever I'm buying something that I'm not sure of, that is a first time buy. I will say that I do have an account with a different name if I'm going to give my authors a review, because they want me to leave a review for their, you know, as the publisher, as you say, there's a bit of nepotism there. And I think Amazon pick up on that. So I have a nom de plume, as they say, especially for that because I can see how know could be very controversial. But you left some good tips on that. I love it. 

And yes, having some prewritten templates that people can use because you're right, you ask someone to do it and they get intimidated. It's like the testimonial for your book. People don't know how to write it. And with the best will in the world, they want to do it for you because they love you. But then they're like, well, I don't know what to write. So somehow it doesn't get done unless you can give them some guidance there. So I think that's so key in what you said, Michelle. I mean, I'm looking at the time, I'm like, oh, my goodness.
 
 Michelle Vandepas(0:28:40) - I know.

Susnan Friedmann (0:28:41) - Fascinating. And we're like going on. This is the time when I say, share something about Michelle and your services. So our authors, if they want to get in touch with you, how they can do that.

Michelle Vandepas(0:28:55) - Yeah. Thank you so much, Susan. So I like to really connect with people around what their purpose and their message is, and then how do we go get that out into the world? And it just happens to be that. Books is the tool that I use mostly to get that out, but it is around purpose and messaging and passion and all of those things and how you're here to make a difference in the world. The easiest way to find me is at theautherpath.com. That's P-A-T hthath.com. And my programs are there in a connect button and follow me. And free stuff and all the good stuff, the opt-ins and things that we've been talking about today.

Susnan Friedmann (0:29:39) - Lovely. And if you were to leave our listeners, which I really hope you will, with a golden nugget, what would that be? Michelle?

Michelle Vandepas(0:29:49) - I've been doing this a very long time, and I think we're talking with people who've mostly already written their book. I would tell you not to be disheartened. I have a book that still sells really well, and it's eight years old. Even if you haven't gotten the big marketing push or the big sales that you hoped you would have, I would ask yourself, are you on message? Is it in your heart? Do you still feel passionate about the message? 

And then you just keep doing, you just get up every day and keep doing it. And you have to be resilient because the market goes up and down. We've had people release books on days the ore breaks out and nobody's there buying books. Everyone's glued to the news or social. Everything outside of yourself goes up and down. The only thing you have control over is yourself. If it's in your heart, if you're passionate about it, if you feel like it's part of your purpose on the planet, don't give up. Just find tools, support, coaching, resources, whatever you need to help you stay on track and just keep going because it will pay off.
 
 Susnan Friedmann (0:30:58) - Yes. Thank you for that. It's interesting because I had a conversation with one of my authors. The book's been out a few months, and they're like, oh, I want to give up. It's not having the sales or the effect that they thought it would. And I was like, don't do that. It's like the tipping point. Malcolm Gladwell's. You keep going up and up and up and up and you come to a point where then it'll tip in your favor. But you never know what you do or who might be able to open a door for you that will just catapult your success. But you've got to keep doing nice. Be resilient. Yeah, I love it. 

Thank you. Michelle. You've been awesome, just like you were the first time around. Second time is even better. So really appreciate you being here and sharing your wisdom with my listeners. 

And listeners, if your book isn't selling the way you wanted, or expect it to, let's you and I jump on a quick call together to brainstorm ways to ramp up those sales. You've invested a whole lot of time, money and energy, and it's time you got the return that you were hoping for. So go to brainstormwithsusan.com to schedule your free call. And in the meantime, I hope this powerful interview sparks some ideas you can use to sell more books. Until next week, here's wishing you much book and author marketing success.