Susan Friedmann [00:00:31]:

Welcome to Book Marketing Mentors, the weekly podcast where you learn proven strategies, tools, ideas and tips from the masters. Every week, I introduce you to a marketing master who will share their expertise to help you market and sell more books. Today, my special guest is Kevin Jans. Kevin is a popular thought leader in the space of writing productivity, personal motivation, time management, and independent publishing. He's the father of three young daughters, an author, podcaster and independent entrepreneur. As a writing coach, he's helped hundreds of writers from around the world get ideas out of their heads, onto the page and into the hands of readers. Kevin specialises in helping Sci-Fi fantasy, horror, thriller, and adventure novelists go pro with their writing careers. Kevin, it's a pleasure to welcome you back to the show.

 

Susan Friedmann [00:01:35]:

We've had you, I think, once or twice, whatever. It's just wonderful to have you here. So thank you for being this week's guest expert and mentor.

 

Kevin Johns [00:01:47]:

I am thrilled to be here. And if for no other reason, just to hear you read my bio, it has never sounded better than in your voice.

 

Susan Friedmann [00:01:58]:

Well, thank you. I appreciate that. People say I could listen to you read the telephone book. I was like, no, I don't think you do. Although now that's very outdated, isn't it? I don't know that we have telephone books anymore. That really dated me. Any event, Kevin, it is good to have you here, and I know we're going to talk about a couple of different things, and I'm going to have you put on your podcaster hat because I love it when we can sort of talk about how we can use podcast to sell our books and just to promote ourselves as authors. And you've got such a wide range of authors who you work with and especially from the fiction standpoint, I think this is really interesting to look at how podcasts can help fiction authors sell books, because, as you know, I talk a lot about nonfiction, but I love to add in occasionally the fiction component, which is obviously really important because I think more people read fiction books than nonfiction books.

 

Susan Friedmann [00:03:04]:

I don't know, is that true or not true?

 

Kevin Johns [00:03:07]:

I don't know what the ratio is, but I would certainly say that fiction authors probably need a little more support and help and guidance. When it comes to book marketing, a lot of nonfiction authors are coming at it from a perspective of having a message and wanting to reach an audience and having some sort of larger strategy to get there, whether that book is adjacent to a business or a way to launch a business. But when it comes to the fiction folks, a lot of the time they're just a passionate, talented artist with a story to tell. And so when it comes to something like book marketing, they often need a little more help along the way because it's just not their headspace or whether they're coming at when they create their book.

 

Susan Friedmann [00:03:53]:

Yeah, they don't think about that. And you're right. I mean, I've represented a few, very few, because I don't like to take on fiction authors. But I one occasion get my arm twisted and do it. And I always say to them, it's the marketing side of it that unfortunately, I'm not good at because I'm really all about nonfiction and from the business aspect. So let's talk about this as it relates to podcasts. So, first of all, let's talk about how do you identify and choose the right podcasts that align with your book genre and target audience, especially because, as I say, you cover such a wide range of fiction writers.

 

Kevin Johns [00:04:41]:

Well, this is where fiction authors can really draw on their query skill set. And so any author who has tried to go traditional, or who has gone traditional has gone through the process of researching agents, studying agents, and then drafting a query letter appropriate to that agent. And as someone who is a podcaster and receives cold outreach all the time from publicists as well as from authors, I can tell you the easiest thing to do, step one, is personalize that outreach. Spamming podcasters is not going to get you success any more than spamming agents is. You really want to educate yourself on agents in terms of who they represent, what they're looking for, and what their guidelines are for submission. And it's the exact same way with podcasters. Really take the time to familiarize yourself with the podcast, with the podcaster, and make sure that your book is appropriate for the show. My show is called the writing coach, and I have two types of episodes, episodes where it's just me sharing writing advice and then interviews with people who help authors.

 

Kevin Johns [00:06:00]:

But I constantly get pitched guests and appearances from folks who are just fiction authors, and it would only take a couple listens of my podcast to know that's not who I have on the show, and so it's a waste of their time. As well as a waste of my time. So the number one thing I would say folks can do is put that research hat on and really be willing to take the time to do the research, to figure out who the right people are and what you can bring.

 

Susan Friedmann [00:06:29]:

To their show and to listen to the podcast. I mean, the same. I get similar kinds of pitches. Oh, I've written a book. You've got a pr agency who's representing the author, and they say, oh, my client has just written a book, and they'll be great for your show. I was like, just because they've written a book doesn't mean they're going to be great for my show. I don't pitch books on my show. Now, the fact if you've written a book as part of your expertise, that's great.

 

Susan Friedmann [00:06:59]:

Again, I know if they've listened to the show and know how I run the show, just like yours. Yeah.

 

Kevin Johns [00:07:08]:

And people listen to you, they're going to say, well, that's so much work. I have to listen to so many podcasts. And it's like, yeah, welcome to life. People who succeed are the people who put in the effort, who take the time and put in the hours to find success. Nothing's easy. And spamming anyone is not going to get you anywhere.

 

Susan Friedmann [00:07:28]:

Yeah. No, I quite agree. Let's say you find yourself on a podcast. I get this from many of my nonfiction authors, but I'm sure even more so with fiction. And that is the balance between promoting your book and contributing to a meaningful conversation on that podcast. How do you find that balance?

 

Kevin Johns [00:07:54]:

I think you come at it from the mindset that you're not selling the book. You are selling yourself. You are selling your brand as an author, especially when it comes to literature. So many of us have our favorite authors, and Stephen King puts out a new book. I go and I buy the new Stephen King book. And it has nothing to do with what it's about. It has to do with his brand and the trust he's earned with me as a reader. And so I think you go on the podcast as an opportunity to share your personality, to share your insights, and to share the things that you're interested in, because there's nothing more attractive than passion, than someone who really cares about a topic.

 

Kevin Johns [00:08:42]:

And so if you go on a podcast and you just have a great, genuine discussion, and then at the end of it, or in the context of the discussion, you mention the book, the people who resonate with you, with the way you talk, with the way you see the world, with your energy, are going to be curious about that book and they're going to go check it out. But it's not about selling the book, it's about selling you as the author.

 

Susan Friedmann [00:09:07]:

Oh, I just love that because that's something that I say all the time, especially when authors say, oh, I don't know how to sell, or I don't like the idea of selling. And I was like, it's all about your passion. Your passion is contagious and that's what people are going to buy. You don't need any sleazy techniques to try and persuade somebody to buy the book. The fact is that, like you said, if you're so passionate about your subject matter, it's like, yeah, I want a bit of what she's got or he's got.

 

Kevin Johns [00:09:42]:

Absolutely. And one of the reasons why my number one recommendation for book marketing to my clients is podcasts is that it's so much fun. You're going on, you're meeting friendly people and you're talking about things that interest you yourself in your areas of interest and your writing and your experiences. I mean, what's more fun than that? And so even if it doesn't lead to 1000 books sold, it led to a great experience. It led to you getting to feel like a star for a little moment. And it leads to that growing network and authority that you can add to your website or that you can mention in your bio. I've been on this podcast or whatnot. So there's so many benefits to podcasting that I would say the ease of doing it or to the benefits you get from it are just so many, so wonderful.

 

Kevin Johns [00:10:40]:

And for people who are introverts, who are a lot of writers, something like going on tv or going on video can be really intimidating. And it brings in all these issues of lighting and body image and makeup and hairstyle and editing is so much harder in video because we want the images to Max. With podcasts, you're just getting on there and you're talking. There's so much more opportunity to edit, to fix up mistakes. It's really a low risk, fun way to get yourself out there and to talk about the things that interest you.

 

Susan Friedmann [00:11:14]:

Oh my goodness. Just your passion. Listening to your passion, it's like, oh, I want to get on a podcast. No, that's exactly, I mean, what you're doing is really, you're showing people exactly what to do because you're excited about it, you're passionate about it, can hear it in your voice, and it's like that's so attractive. It's like, yeah, again, I want what he's got. How about when you're on the podcast, you've been talking about your book. Do you recommend that folks go buy the book from the podcast? What's that sort of call to action that you would recommend authors have as a result of an interview?

 

Kevin Johns [00:12:01]:

As a marketing expert, Susan, you know that people buy from who they know, who they like and who they trust. Maybe if you're the most dynamic interview ever, someone might say, oh, my goodness, I absolutely need to go buy that book right now. But a better strategy might be to offer that person a gift, maybe a free chapter from the book or maybe some other sort of gift, host it on your website, get that email address, have them opt in and have a nice autoresponder sequence where you can continue to share your personality, continue to share information about the book and build that trust. Because trust does get built over time. And so you might have more luck building out that mailing list, giving people another opportunity to get to know you over a few different emails, as opposed to just trying to get them to hop on right over to Amazon and buy it. And the thing is, folks who absolutely fall in love with you after one interview will pop over to Amazon and buy it anyway. And so for everyone else, it's probably a good idea to send them to a lead magnet, send them to your website, give them something, a taste of what you do, and get them on that mailing list and earn yourself an opportunity to earn that trust over time.

 

Susan Friedmann [00:13:17]:

I think that's so important because one of the biggest things is building that mailing list, building group of people who are interested in your subject matter and that you can follow up with and either promote your book or promote some other aspect. Maybe you've started some kind of group community of like minded people interested in that genre, be it Sci-Fi be it thrillers, whatever. So, yeah, I think that's so important. And yes, they're going to buy the book in any event, but you want to get that email address because otherwise, if they go straight to Amazon, you've got no clue who bought that book. Unless of course, there's something in the book, know, some kind of promotion incentive, a QR code that leads straight to your website.

 

Kevin Johns [00:14:12]:

And there absolutely should be, right?

 

Susan Friedmann [00:14:15]:

Yeah. Well, that's the latest thing now. I mean, I remember a few years ago, QR codes. What's a QR code? And now you see them everywhere. I mean, you go to a restaurant, there's no menu anymore. They just give you a QR code on the table and say, hey, that's where the menu is if you want to see it.

 

Kevin Johns [00:14:35]:

Absolutely. You mentioned the different genres. Going back to this idea of marketing fiction writing, I think there is this tendency for people to think only in terms of genre. And so, for example, a client of mine just came out with a book called Odd mom out, and it's a women's fiction novel, kind of a light Bridget Jones type fun book with some real heart to it. And so the natural instinct might be to research podcasts about women's fiction books and those sorts of things. But like any good novel, it's about more than just women. There's all sorts of other themes and topics within the book. So, for example, in Od mom out, the character is overweight and discovers a low carb diet and starts having some success with it over the course of the book.

 

Kevin Johns [00:15:24]:

And I was saying to my client, you've just opened up a whole new vertical there, right? Podcasts that are low carb focused. There's a zillion health focused low carb podcast, and they have doctor after Doctor on the show, or people selling supplements or whatever it is. I bet you they would love to have a fiction author come on and talk about the idea of a low carb diet in a fiction book. And I bet you the listeners of a low carb podcast are probably dying to read a fiction novel about a character who's interested in that same way of eating and seeing the same kinds of success with it. And so for the fiction authors, I really encourage people to look beyond just the genre. Yeah, you can go on romance podcasts if you're a romance writer, but what are the other interesting, unique niches within that book that you explore, that you know about, and look for opportunities to go on those podcasts as well.

 

Susan Friedmann [00:16:23]:

And I think you bring up another good point, too, and that is if you know your target audience, women of a certain age group or men of a certain age group. And again, you look at podcasts where they hang out. Just because you've written a fiction book doesn't mean you have to stay within the fiction market, just as you rightly say. I mean, opening up to diets, that's a huge market, nutritionists. And as you said, it'll be fun to read something fiction rather than just another cookbook or another diet. That's going to tell you something. Let's enjoy it as well.

 

Kevin Johns [00:17:03]:

Yes, I have another client who writes mystery novels, but rather than a detective, it's an accountant. The character uses her accounting skills to solve crimes. And what I always say to the author is, I'd be at every accounting conference I could possibly get to imagine that you're at this super dry, super boring accounting conference, and then there's someone at this corner selling exciting murder mysteries featuring a cool accountant who solves mysteries. I mean, it's perfect.

 

Susan Friedmann [00:17:35]:

I love that. Now, how about Sci-Fi? Would that be a harder one? What do you recommend for your Sci-Fi writers?

 

Kevin Johns [00:17:45]:

Well, I mean, Sci-Fi is one of those genres where actually, I wouldn't single Sci-Fi out, but I mean, fans are so galvanized in the Sci-Fi world. I mean, long before other fandoms were having conferences and everything, there was Sci-Fi conferences in the. So that's a case where there probably is a plethora of Sci-Fi podcasts out there that you could probably get on and talk about your book and talk about your unique approach to Sci-Fi. But the thing about Sci-Fi is, again, it's about science. It's about futurism. And so again, you're not coming on a podcast, even if you're a Sci-Fi author, to say, oh, it's about Steve who goes to Mars. No, you go on and you're like, oh, in my book, we've figured out a way to oxygeize Mars, whatever the proper term would be. And you talk about the ideas around the book.

 

Kevin Johns [00:18:45]:

That's what people are interested in, whether it's fantasy or Sci-Fi or romance or whatnot. It's really the ideas in the book that's fun to talk about. So look at your book again and kind of deconstruct it and say, yes, it's a Sci-Fi book, but so what, what's interesting about it, what are the ideas about the future that you're presenting in this book that make good talking points and are worth having a conversation about?

 

Susan Friedmann [00:19:12]:

You mentioned earlier about lead magnets and giving away, let's say, a chapter of your book. What are some other, maybe I'm going to say, more exciting, but a little different type of lead magnets that you've seen that authors are using that work.

 

Kevin Johns [00:19:32]:

Well, certainly prequels, side stories. My daughter is 14 years old, and she's absolutely obsessed with this book series. Shatter me. I think there's like ten books, but among the ten books, there's novellas in there, and it's just one more thing for her to consume. And I think it's really smart of that author, I think the Percy Jackson author has done the same thing in terms of you have your main series, you have the books, but then you write novellas about side characters, or you write prequels, or you write other things set in the same universe. And all of those things make for great lead magnets for a fiction author. In the nonfiction world, obviously, there's checklists, there's help videos, and regardless of whether there's fiction or nonfiction, there's always the opportunity to invite people to a community. If you're an author who writes Sci-Fi novels about dolphins, set up that Sci-Fi dolphin lovers Facebook group, private Facebook group, and offer people the opportunity to get into that community and interact with like minded people.

 

Kevin Johns [00:20:47]:

And it's just another great lead magnet that allows you to stay in touch with people and get to know them and provide them with a gift. Right? And at the end of the day, that's what a lead magnet is, is you're giving them something really awesome. And that builds trust, and there's a reciprocal nature to it where if you give something to someone really amazing for free, they're much more inclined to say, purchase the next thing you put out.

 

Susan Friedmann [00:21:14]:

Yes. And a way for people to get on your mailing list as well. I always say yes. These social media platforms are great. However, if one of them goes away, or if they all go away, we just don't know what's going to happen to them, then you've lost everybody. So to encourage people as much as possible to sign up in some way for, let's say, one of these lead magnets is a great way, too, because then, yes, you might meet on Facebook or one of the other platforms. However, if anything happens, you can still connect with these people and promote to them and still give them the information.

 

Kevin Johns [00:21:58]:

Would you like a hack, Susan? Would you like a little? We're here for hacks, right? Here's a great one. Your lead magnet is whatever it is, a free chapter. You ask people to opt in, you send them the email, and you say, hey, pop over and join my private Facebook group. That's where the free chapter is housed. And now you've got people onto a mailing list, and you've also got them into your private Facebook group where they can download the document.

 

Susan Friedmann [00:22:29]:

Beautiful. I love it. Let's talk about some mistakes. I think you mentioned a couple when we were talking about podcasting and going back, switching back a little bit to that. What are some mistakes that you've seen authors make when it comes to either getting on shows or actually being a guest on shows.

 

Kevin Johns [00:22:53]:

Like with most things in life, the more you can make other people's lives easier, the more success you're going to have. So I can tell you, when people reach out to me to be on my podcast and they say, have a media kit, I'm like, oh, thank goodness. I don't have to ask for their social media links. I don't have to ask for the URL to their lead magnet. Right? Doing things that make it easier for people to say yes to have you on their podcast is really, really important and perhaps the biggest one of all, and it helps everyone. It's a win win, is providing suggested questions. The hardest thing for a journalist in preparation for an interview is having to do that research, having to figure out who this person is and what they might want to talk about. So if you can give them a list of subjects that you like to talk about or a list of questions that they can ask you, it makes their lives so much easier.

 

Kevin Johns [00:23:55]:

But it also benefits you, because now you get to dictate the conversation, you get to decide what you're going to talk about. And so it allows you to really have a sense of control of where things are going and what's going to happen, even though you're the one being interviewed.

 

Susan Friedmann [00:24:15]:

I love that. Yes. I mean, being on the other side, being the host and getting as much information beforehand is really helpful. And I'm thinking, too, that maybe do they send like a synopsis of the book? Because very few people, I would think, are going to necessarily read the book before they interview the guests. What are your thoughts on that?

 

Kevin Johns [00:24:40]:

That's where you can get yourself into trouble. Is that cold outreach? You want to be brief with it. I do not want to read a six page or six paragraph summary of your book. Think query letter again. Right. Introduce yourself, who you are, what the book is, what it's about, and ask if you could perhaps be a guest on the podcast and perhaps say, should you have me on? I've got a media kit I can share with you with all the information you might need. But brevity is the key here. As a journalist, as a podcaster, I don't need to know your life story.

 

Kevin Johns [00:25:17]:

I just need to know who you are, why you're reaching out to me, what you want to talk about on the show, and maybe how I can contact you and just say, hit reply in that sort of thing. So brevity, brevity, brevity, which is a.

 

Susan Friedmann [00:25:30]:

Perfect segue into our listeners knowing how they can contact you, and I believe you've got something extra special going on in just a few short weeks.

 

Kevin Johns [00:25:43]:

I certainly do. So this is a marketing podcast, so let's be totally transparent and clear here. This is my lead magnet. A couple of years ago, I developed a four week program called Story Plan, focused on teaching people some core fundamental writers craft skills, while in the process helping them develop a rock solid outline for their book. By the end of those four weeks, I did this program at a high cost and a bunch of people bought it. And it was such a success. Your natural instinct is, wow, this is a huge success. I made a bunch of money, I got to do this again.

 

Kevin Johns [00:26:20]:

But I was like, this thing is so good. I'm pretty sure if someone goes through this program, they're going to love me. Story plan became my lead magnet. It's basically just an unbelievable four week program. It works through email, and I send people daily writers craft training videos. And then on Fridays they get a homework assignment. Or maybe it should be called a creativity assignment or an imagination stimulating assignment. But the idea is, it gets you thinking about all the ideas you learn during the week, and then you apply them to your outline.

 

Kevin Johns [00:27:01]:

I've run it seven times now. It's a huge success every time. And the next round of it is happening the first week of March. And so we're gearing up, getting ready to go with the latest round of story plan intensive.

 

Susan Friedmann [00:27:15]:

Fantastic. Yeah, that sounds very exciting. You've got that down really well. And what a fabulous idea as a lead magnet to use. And as you say, they've had such a great taste of you that if they don't love you by the time they finish this, then that's it. But if they do, hey, they want more of you. That's beautiful.

 

Kevin Johns [00:27:39]:

It works as a kind of client sorting mechanism, too, because someone can download a checklist and it's super easily digestible and actionable and whatnot. But the people I want to work with as coaching clients are serious writers. They're people who are focused, dedicated, hungry for knowledge and willing to put in the hard work. And so if people kind of opt out halfway through the program, that's great for me, because what I want to see is the people who actually watch the videos, who actually do the homework, because if they do those things, they find success. And those are the people I want to work with. The go getters, the people who put in the hard effort. It's perfect. It goes full circle to what we were talking about at the beginning of this podcast in terms of, yeah, it is a lot of work to get out there and get onto podcasts, but it's a lot of fun, too.

 

Kevin Johns [00:28:39]:

And it's the same with story plan intensive. That's why I put the word intensive in the title of the program. It's not an easy program. It forces people to make decisions about their story, perhaps before they're ready to make those decisions. Or it encourages people to get into those discomfort zones. And as you know, those discomfort zones is where the magic happens. And so folks who do finish the program find success and have proven to me that they're the type of people that I want to work with. And so then the opportunity is given to them to continue working with me in other ways.

 

Susan Friedmann [00:29:16]:

Fantastic. Well, we'll put the link to that in the show notes, Kevin. And as you know, we always love to end the podcast interview with you sharing a golden nugget, those final words of wisdom.

 

Kevin Johns [00:29:33]:

It's almost a cliche, but it's a cliche because it's the truth. And that is that the best marketing technique you're ever going to implement is writing an incredible book.

 

Susan Friedmann [00:29:48]:

Writing an incredible book. We should all be able to write incredible books.

 

Kevin Johns [00:29:53]:

We can.

 

Susan Friedmann [00:29:54]:

You know what?

 

Kevin Johns [00:29:54]:

Well, what I say is there's fundamentals to the craft of writing. There are things that you can do that can all but guarantee a really good to great book. And so learn those things, do those things, and you're going to get an a, almost guaranteed. And then the a pluses, the outliers, the things that blow up out of nowhere. That's a little serendipity, that's a little bit of magic. That's a little bit of coincidence and luck or just long term hard work and effort. But most of the time, most people can write a really great book if they put in the effort and the time to learn the craft.

 

Susan Friedmann [00:30:45]:

I love it. And you're there to teach them what a great match. I love it.

 

Kevin Johns [00:30:50]:

Right? I teach them how to write a great book, which is the perfect starting point for a book launch. And then I send them over to you and they can let the world know all about them and sell a ton. Oh, that'll be great.

 

Susan Friedmann [00:31:03]:

I love it. Well, as usual, you've done your magic. I love it. And thank you so much for sharing your magic, sharing your wisdom, sharing your passion for this. You blow me away every time I speak to with you. So I love having you as a guest. And listeners, check out Kevin's story plan. I think you are really going to enjoy it.

 

Susan Friedmann [00:31:30]:

Especially if fiction is something that you would like to get into. And you know the drill. If your book isn't selling the way you wanted or expected to, let's you and I jump on a quick call to brainstorm ways to ramp up those sales, because you've invested a whole lot of time, money, and energy, and it's time you got the return you were hoping for. So go to BrainstormWithSusan.com to schedule your free call. And in the meantime, I hope this powerful interview sparked some ideas you can use to not only sell, but also write more books. Until next week, here's wishing you much book and author marketing success.

Here's how to find out more about Kevin's Story Plan Intensive