Susan Friedmann [00:00:00]:
Welcome to Book Marketing Mentors, the weekly podcast where you learn proven strategies, tools, ideas, and tips from the masters. Every week, I introduce you to a marketing master who will share their expertise to help you market and sell more books. Today, my special guest is Jason Van Orden. Jason is a growth strategist who helps coaches and authors turn their expertise into multiple streams of income. He draws from almost 20 years of experience, including launching over 60 online courses, working with more than 10,000 entrepreneurs, and launching the first ever podcast about Internet business, which was the top 10 ranked business podcast for over 10 years. Jason, it's wonderful to welcome you back to the show, and thank you for being this week's guest expert and mentor.
Jason Van Orden [00:00:53]:
My pleasure, Susan. Always, nice to chat with you.
Susan Friedmann [00:00:56]:
Jason, one of the things that I've been attending workshops that you've given, I've heard several presentations that you've given on crafting messaging hooks that attract your ideal clients. And I said, we've gotta have you on the show again because this is just such an important topic, especially for our listeners. Let's get very granular and start off that we all understand exactly what is a messaging hook, and then why is it important in terms of attracting our ideal clients?
Jason Van Orden [00:01:34]:
There are a few challenges that come to mind that I know a lot of experts face when trying to get their message out there. 1 is just simply cutting through the noise and what is often referred to as an attention economy, meaning that our attention, the attention to the people we want to reach the attention of everyone, it's getting more and more difficult because we're all bombarded with so many different pieces of input from every direction. And so how do you stand out when the people you want to reach are dealing with that noise every day? And then if you do stand out, the second thing is how do you differentiate yourself from others who might do similar things to you? And you are you're unique. You want to make sure that you communicate that you're unique. What's unique about you such that they stick around and go like, oh, I've not heard this before in the way that you're saying this. Then the third thing that we can run into is, you know, even if you do stand out for a moment, is that if at any point the messaging doesn't quite align, then it's like we're dealing with a leaky bucket, meaning that, you know, the attention you're trying to get, the people you're trying to attract, the potential audience members and and clients that you're bringing in, if as they're looking at your content, your marketing, do they immediately see themselves in it? Do they find that it is relevant to something that's, you know, top of mind important to them? And this is all happening in a matter of seconds sometimes. And if the answer is like, oh yeah, I've been there, done that, seen this, or they just don't even realize that what you're talking about actually is relevant to them because you're using a language that doesn't align, then it's like water leaking through the hole in a bucket. And if we think of our marketing and sales efforts as this system that we're trying to get a nice flow of water through any holes is going to mean that we are wasting effort, that we are not grabbing attention efficiently, not doing the best job we can to put our message out there in a unique way.
Jason Van Orden [00:03:30]:
And then the way that that shows up as a symptom is I'm having a hard time getting attention of the right people. I'm having a hard time showing them that my solution is the one they're looking for, that it's worth paying what I charge. So people slip through the cracks, and it becomes harder than it should be to grow our business and find those ideal clients that we want to work with.
Susan Friedmann [00:03:51]:
I love that metaphor with the leaky bucket. So let's look at some of those holes first because I thought, let's do this as a a problem solution because I know you've got a great solution. Let's focus, first of all, on what the problems are because we're putting out messages all the time, you know, through the book and through our content marketing, our blogs, our social media posts. Let's talk about the problems that exist most frequently that you see why it's not working.
Jason Van Orden [00:04:23]:
Yeah. Sure. You know, one of the main ones is something that affects all of us. And as I described this, I wanted to be a little bit of a wake up call, but also just like, oh, okay. Look. This is something we all run into, and there's a solution for it. The problem is causing this mismatch in our messaging and leading to those symptoms we talked about. One of the main things is something that's called the curse of expertise.
Jason Van Orden [00:04:45]:
Also sometimes called the curse of knowledge. And it simply states that, and there's research about this, that the more experienced we get, the better we get at what we do, which is what makes what we offer so valuable. The harder it is for us to remember what it is like to be in the position of those that we want to reach. And sometimes without even realizing it, we use language that doesn't quite connect. We perhaps start talking about the solution that we believe in, that we think is perfect. That's the one thing that we want to get out there because we know it can make a difference in people's lives. But if they don't immediately start getting a sense of like, oh, this is for me and related to things that really matter most to me right now, you're not going to gain enough of that time and attention to make your case for them to go, oh, this is the thing I've always been looking for. Right.
Jason Van Orden [00:05:30]:
And so that curse of expertise gets in our way. So what do you do? It creates this gap in our marketing. And so, you know, you're gaining less attention or you're losing attention even once you get it. One of the things that I always try to do when I work with people is to help them with frameworks, to take their expertise and what truly makes them unique and really connected back to who's the ideal person you're trying to reach. What is it that they're actively looking for? What's the language they're using to describe what they're going through right now, their experiences right now, where they're trying to get, why they think that they're having trouble reaching that outcome or goal that they're going for. And it's important for us to realize that sometimes they are thinking things that aren't accurate. Like they have misconceptions, judgments, their worldview that they're bringing in that moment where we're trying to grab their attention. And those things are friction working against us unless we use just the right language to, again, grab their attention, have them go, woah, wait a second.
Jason Van Orden [00:06:26]:
This feels like it's for me. This feels different than what I've heard before. And I think this is something I need to check into sooner rather than later. And then you'll have that opportunity to make your case as to why you're the perfect fit for your ideal client. So that's one of the biggest problems I see is just that cursive expertise creates that gap, but there's some useful frameworks we can use to close that gap and create that nice alignment or what I sometimes call the eclipse effect. You know, eclipse is all about the alignment of the sun and the moon and the earth in a certain way. We want our messaging to align just right in a way that it hits perfectly and that we are attracting our perfect ideal clients on a regular basis.
Susan Friedmann [00:07:07]:
We're going to delve into that alignment because I know that, as you say, you've got that formula that allows us to do that. And you're so right about that curse of knowledge, that curse of expertise that we think just because we know it that everybody else knows it. I know that that's something I try and pay attention to on the podcast that, yes, if we're talking about something that I know and understand and you know and understand, but do our listeners know and understand that? That's why sometimes I like to get really granular and say, let's explain this because not everybody knows what we know.
Jason Van Orden [00:07:46]:
Right.
Susan Friedmann [00:07:46]:
And we just don't know when we wanna make sure that, basically, we're all singing out of the same songbook, so to speak. So that mismatch, that messaging mismatch, let's turn that around and talk about the alignment because, obviously, that's the solution to the problem that we want to patch those leaky, those holes.
Jason Van Orden [00:08:11]:
Yeah. The holes in the bottom.
Susan Friedmann [00:08:12]:
Isn't leaking out, and people are getting the messaging. So let's start with this alignment. Where do we start with this?
Jason Van Orden [00:08:20]:
Okay. So I wanna share a fundamental principle in the form of a quote, and then I'm gonna share a 3 part simple framework that helps close the gap. Here's the principle to keep in mind, and I think this is one of the most important things to remember when it comes to marketing and sales. And it's a quote by a gentleman by the name of Robert Collier, who was an author and a marketer back in the early 20th century. Something that he wrote once was, you have to always enter the conversation that's already going on in the mind of the prospect. So set of different ways, like, are we meeting them where they're at? Are we using the language that they would use? Do they immediately find it relevant? Do they immediately find it resonant in a way that they go, I've got to pay attention. Right? How do we do that? How do we always enter the conversation that's already going on in the mind of these ideal clients that we want to reach? And that's where my 3 r framework comes in. The 3 r's, and I've already said a couple of these words, are relevance, resonance, and remarkability.
Jason Van Orden [00:09:19]:
Very quickly, and then we can dive into, each of these relevances. Are you speaking to a top of mind need or challenge desire that they are actively aware of and looking for. Because if you're trying to convince people that they should be concerned about X topic, you know, as much as we want to warn people and sometimes preach prevention, it can be very difficult and uphill battle. If we aren't speaking to the things that feel the most pressing to them right now. What are they waking up thinking about? What are they worrying about throughout the day? What are they going to sleep worrying about at night? And you're there to offer relief from those things. So relevance is the first thing. Resonance is, are you talking about them in a way where they feel like, you know what? You're like me. You're the kind of person I can trust.
Jason Van Orden [00:10:03]:
Not only are you credible and capable of bringing about perhaps this thing that I'm looking for, but you feel like the kind of person I can trust to have my best interests in mind. And as human beings, there are all kinds of shortcuts that we take for that resonance, which we can talk about, but it's about communicating things like value and purpose and stories. And sometimes it's as simple as sharing things like, hey, I'm a parent or I play guitar because these are the clues that we use to determine who are our people, who can we trust in the world. And so when we use language, it's not only relevant, but also creates that resonant again with resonance, with our ideal people, happy to let go of the people who just aren't going to resonate, then it makes a huge difference. And then third one is remarkability. What is different about your message? What are you saying that is giving them new hope that is creating a bit of a paradigm shift for them and getting them to say, you know what? I have never heard it said in quite this way. I feel like I should pay more attention. This might be the thing that I have been looking for, the missing piece that I've been hoping for.
Jason Van Orden [00:11:03]:
So relevance, resonance, and remarkability. And by thinking about those three things, we bridge the gap, that curse of expertise gap in our marketing messaging. We grab attention more easily. We keep their attention for longer. We earn their trust more easily, and then we have the chance to make the case to our ideal clients of here's why I am your best fit solution.
Susan Friedmann [00:11:27]:
I love this. It resonates with me. Let's start at the beginning with this and talk about, you said, the relevance part of it. And speaking to something that's top of mind, that's pressing for our target audience. And the question is, we think we might know what it is. However, again, it goes back to that curse of knowledge. Right. We think we know, but do we really know? So how do we find out that piece? Because that obviously is sort of one of the major keys to opening the door.
Susan Friedmann [00:12:04]:
So how do we do that?
Jason Van Orden [00:12:06]:
Yeah. This is a great question. So the, how is we talk to them? I'll say a little bit more about that, but what is it that we're trying to figure out exactly? You know, the thing that really helps the most with relevance is determining what is the outcome that they are looking for more than anything as they would describe it. And one of the biggest mistakes we make as experts is we start talking about our solution too soon before they even have a chance to realize that our solution is relevant to that outcome that they want. Very quick example, a client that I was working with had a wonderful framework for teaching teams how to be more resilient because she found in her research that resilience was key for managing stress in such a way that people thrived at work, had more productivity, stuck around in their roles. But the managers and leaders that she wanted to reach to have them bring her in to teach this to teams, they weren't waking up in the morning thinking, man, if my team was only more resilient, my life would be better. We ran a campaign or what we did is we had her reach out through her network to find the kind of people that she wanted to reach and have hire her to have conversations with and to ask really nice open ended questions about what are your biggest struggles right now? What have you tried to overcome those? What have been the frustrations that have gotten in your way? And this gives you the raw materials to look at as the expert and go like, okay, I see how to connect what I'm offering to what they are experiencing on a daily basis. And the two things that showed up the most in that research were they were afraid of losing their best people because it's expensive to lose good people and have to rehire and replace them.
Jason Van Orden [00:13:42]:
And they were worried about burnout and people not being productive because they're just burned out on their work too much. And so what did we do? We started wrapping her message of resilience, her solution of I'm going to teach your people how to be resilient by first talking about, Hey, do you want to make sure you don't lose your best people? Do you want to make sure that they're not getting burned out and therefore not delivering their best work? Let me show you the missing piece. The thing that I believe is the linchpin for improving that. And then we have the opportunity to come in and say, resilience is the key. Oh, and by the way, I've got a roadmap to make your teams more resilient. So that's the example of bridging that relevance gap by bringing the solution over to what are they thinking about on a daily basis in terms of goals, challenges, desires, unfulfilled desires? And when you can do that, you're gonna gain their attention a lot more easily.
Susan Friedmann [00:14:33]:
Fabulous example because you're right. Even though resilience is her, let's say, her topic, we don't think like that. As you said, we're not thinking about resilience, but we might be thinking about fear of something, fear of loss, and that fear of burnout, which is much more granular. It's earthy. It's more down to earth with how we actually think. Because at the end of the day, there are just a few things that we're fearful of, our health, our safety, our money. Yeah. They're just a few things.
Susan Friedmann [00:15:08]:
So it's just in those terms. We've got number 1. We've got the relevance piece. So we're asking them. We're asking them some simple questions. What are their challenges? What works? What hasn't worked? Where are they, etcetera? And now we're looking at the resonance piece. Again, resonance is a word, again, we don't regularly use per se, other than obviously in a musical environment. I think of that when I think of resonance, I think of music.
Susan Friedmann [00:15:39]:
But when we relate it here, I know you said, well, people who are more like me, more like us. How do we find that out?
Jason Van Orden [00:15:49]:
Yeah. So this is where it's important to know, like, what are the values as it relates to and sometimes it has to be directly related to, but what are the values that are most important to your intended audience, your ideal clients? What are the things that you have in common with them that you could weave into your messaging and your content again to trigger a bit of that? Oh, you seem like you're like me, therefore, I feel like I can trust you. Right? Here's another example. This one, I'll use myself as a personal example. I'm always looking for new ways to help me with managing anxiety. That's something that's just been a part of my adult life. And, you know, I've done a lot of things with, like, meditation and therapy and medication and so forth and always looking for that next thing. And something that's been very curious to me lately is, you know, a lot of the latest research about trauma and our nervous system and, you know, what they call the vagus nerve.
Jason Van Orden [00:16:40]:
And you don't have to know what any of this means to understand the example. But as I was doing some research, I recently I fell upon this person, if I was on TikTok, and her video came up and she started using, first of all, language that exactly described my experience. She talked about that therapy is great, but sometimes it's not enough for people, which has also been my experience. And she started mentioning, you know, things like, and some of these things that matter to me lately, like the latest research on digging into our trauma and solving it in order to release some of that anxiety. And so she kept using these words and these pieces that matter to me. And then she started talking about, you know, she dropped in a little bit about the science. She wasn't heavy on data, but that was something that resonated with me. I like to know that there's some science backing the thing that I'm going to invest in.
Jason Van Orden [00:17:32]:
And sometimes it's going to be as simple as like talking about being a parent, talking about liking, you know, what your favorite TV show is, because all of those things add together. But so quickly, I was like, I want to see what she has to offer because just like everything she was saying was lining up with my language, was lining up with what mattered to me. She seemed like one of my people. And so I was just immediately given to like, I want to give her my email. I want to see what she has for me to check out and see. I want to know, does she have a coaching group? Oh, I'm in her orbit, actively researching what she has to offer. So that's what resonance is about everything from the small commonalities. I shouldn't say small, but the commonalities such as hobbies and, parenthood, or even where you live or things like that all the way up to like values and what drives you and what matters to you most as it relates to that particular topic or goal or challenge, but also related to other things in life, because these offer clues.
Jason Van Orden [00:18:24]:
And that's why it's so important for us to put ourselves, our personality, and who we are to whatever degree we're comfortable into our content, into our books. Because I think anybody who's read like a Brene Brown book and really enjoyed it knows what I'm talking about. You're just like, wow, she is like in my brain talking to me with like every paragraph. It's amazing. That's what we want to go for, again, by listening carefully to the language that our people use.
Susan Friedmann [00:18:51]:
And Brene Brown is such a wonderful example because you're right. I mean, you listen to this woman who you know is so educated and she's so into research, but yet she talks at a level that we can all understand and she just makes it relatable that you think, yeah. Oh, my goodness. There's this woman who is so incredible, and yet, she's a lot like me. She's a lot
Jason Van Orden [00:19:18]:
like me. I wanna keep listening. I wanna hear what she has to say.
Susan Friedmann [00:19:21]:
Exactly. We should all be like Brene Brown. Now, remarkability, which is my favorite subject, all about differentiation, what makes you different, what makes you unique. How do you propose we go about that?
Jason Van Orden [00:19:38]:
I think we all sometimes have the sense as authors, experts, speakers, whatever, that it's like, I'm one of many out there saying similar things, and that can play with our mind a bit and go like, wow, I feel like when I write a post on LinkedIn or an article on Medium or whatever, that I'm saying the same thing as other people, what in the world is gonna get someone to stop and listen to me? But we all have facets of what we offer that to the people we wanna reach are remarkable, meaning that we want to present a way of looking at the problem or the issue that is different than perhaps what they have considered before. We want to offer a new hope. And what we're trying to avoid is that, you know, if they show up and see a piece of content, and they feel like, yeah, I've heard this before. Yeah, I've tried this before. It didn't work for me, or it taps into some perhaps false misconception about the type of work that you offer, that they're going to very quickly just move on, close the window, delete the email, whatever it is, swipe the TikTok upward, and we've lost them. So we wanna hit them very quickly with what I call a remarkability hook. And that is encapsulating what it is about what we offer that it's like, Hey, you know what? Are you this kind of person, you know, describing our ideal client who wants this kind of outcome? So again, that relevance that we are speaking to, but you keep running into these challenges or these fears or these friction points over here, you know, and they're nodding their head. Well, what if there was a different way? And I'm not saying you have to use that exact wording, but that's the essence of what we're trying to do is like, what if there was a different way? What if there was a missing piece? Let's say you're an ADHD coach.
Jason Van Orden [00:21:16]:
There's a lot of the usual techniques for like, you know, planning and a lot of usual techniques for creating reminders for yourself or routines or whatever. But it's important to know when creating your remarkability hook, like, what are what I call the gaps that are getting in their way? So if we picture them on one side of, like, a chasm, a deep chasm that looks infinitely deep, and they're on one side in this treasure chest of what they want is on the other side, and they've just not managed to bridge that chasm yet. And they're just like, I'm afraid of the cost. I'm afraid of running afraid of failure. I've tried this and it didn't work. You know, there's all these reasons why and things that are inside of that gap holding them back. So what is it about what we offer that's coming with a new way of looking at our new approach? So let's say you are an ADHD coach. Well, you know, you could come out and start talking about time blocking and scheduling, but you might find that a lot of the people that you're trying to reach are like, yeah, I've been there, done that.
Jason Van Orden [00:22:09]:
It didn't work well for me. Or I don't want just another app to look at, or I've tried medication. It worked for a while, but I can't just go back on another medication. So it's important to know, like, what have they tried? What didn't work? So what if as an ADHD coach, you came forward with a message, whether in an article or a podcast interview or in a workshop and said, for those who have struggled to make time blocking and planning and apps work, Let me talk to you about dopamine hacking and the role that it plays in finding all the motivation you need to start and finish the things that matter to you most. Right there, it's like this new idea of like dopamine hacking. It's like, I haven't heard about that before. You're not just parroting the same things that I keep hearing from other ADHD experts and other leaning in going like, tell me more about that. And then you might go on to say like, Hey, here are all these little ways and bigger ways to build into your day ways because ADHD is so much about dopamine.
Jason Van Orden [00:23:03]:
So you have a chance to explain why is dopamine important. Here are some easy ways to start incorporating your dopamine management throughout the day in order to manage your schedule and tasks better. What's the equivalent of that for you? This idea that bridges the gap that maybe they haven't heard before and gives them a different way to look at it, gives them a new hope, hopefully, also remove some of the friction that might be in their way. They're just like on the defense thinking like, don't tell me to just use another app. Don't tell me to just time block. Don't tell me to go back on a medication. And you're like, Hey, what if you didn't have to do that without these things? Here's this other way. And they're like, oh, okay.
Jason Van Orden [00:23:42]:
Now you've got my attention. You've bypassed the reasons I had to immediately dismiss your message. All of this, and we can go into this more is predicated on knowing what's inside of that gap, knowing what's different about your message and how it bridges that gap and removes some of or mitigate some of those elements that are the reasons why they haven't managed to reach that yet, that desired outcome. And, gets them leaning in to hear more because now they're like, Ah, I've got new hope. I want to hear more about what you have to say.
Susan Friedmann [00:24:12]:
Shifting that perception, the what if. What if there was a different way to do it? What if? I think there's more the tendency now to look in that direction rather than just telling them, Well, this is the how to do it, but rather shifting their perception on it. I love it. This is a segue now for you to tell us how we can get hold of you. I know that you've got a super gift for our listeners as well. So take it away, Jason.
Jason Van Orden [00:24:41]:
Yeah, absolutely. I've got a very actionable workshop that you've been to as well that helps walk through these pieces, explaining some of these elements we've talked about, but like specifically, we just very quickly glossed over remarkability, but it helps you dive into that and figure out there are 4 different elements inside of that gap, holding them back. And when you identify what those 4 elements are, it makes it so much easier to nail your remarkability hook that speaks to one of those things and have them go, ah, this is what I've been looking for. And I didn't even know it. In the end, the goal of this workshop is to have you formulate at least one remarkability hook. And ideally you wanna have 2 or 3 or 4 of these. And the reason why is these are those things that whenever you talk about them or create content, and that can be from all kinds of different angles or in different formats, that dependably, it grabs the attention of the right people. So that when you go to do an interview on a podcast, when you go to do a keynote speech, when you do a workshop, when you create a lead magnet, any of these things, you just grab one of your remarkability hooks and say, okay, I'm gonna flesh this out, explain it to them, give them a quick win, show them why I'm credible and create some momentum so that they're that much more likely to want to know more and potentially work with me in the future, or perhaps even immediately if they're eager enough.
Jason Van Orden [00:25:57]:
That's called the Eclipse Factor. So it's all about that alignment with the 3 R's, the Eclipse Factor workshop, and it walks you through the 3 R's and especially that remarkability hook aspect and shows you how to nail that, which makes your marketing so much easier. Once you know those things you stop worrying about like, do I sound different than other people you stop worrying about? Do people actually get it? You stop attracting people just to get on the phone and have them go, yeah, this isn't the right fit. And you feel like you've wasted your time. Like, all of those things lessen when you learn how to nail your messaging hooks upon which you base all of your marketing and you nail that
Susan Friedmann [00:26:36]:
up front. Excellent. And how can we get hold of that, Jason?
Jason Van Orden [00:26:39]:
Yeah. So you can head over to my site, JasonVanOrden.com. That's jasonvanorden.com/eclipse. And that will forward you to a form. Just fill in your name and email, and I'll immediately send you a recording of this very actionable workshop with a worksheet that step by step takes you through the process of nailing down that first messaging hook so that you can put it to work to find new clients.
Susan Friedmann [00:27:05]:
And listeners, it's an amazing workshop. I've attended it a couple of times, and each time it blows me away. Reminds me what I have to keep on doing. Thank you. That's so generous, Jason. And if you were to leave our listeners with a golden nugget, I know you've given us so much great information already, but we always love that little extra. What would you like to share?
Jason Van Orden [00:27:28]:
So anybody who's listening to this and has a, I don't know, maybe a little bit of a doubt still, like, I don't know. Do I really know what's relevant or is there something like that's resonant about me or especially that remarkability thing? I don't know if there's anything different about me. Like it's there it's in you. You have a unique combination of experience and background and expertise and values and strengths that all add up to you being able to nail all 3 of these elements. And look, it's not like you have to invent the next iPhone or something. We're not trying to create this absolutely perfect. Nobody else has duplicated it before, but most people who are out there trying to communicate their expertise are not putting enough effort into nailing those three elements. And so by you taking the time to do that, you will immediately stand out above those who who aren't doing that.
Jason Van Orden [00:28:18]:
I just want people to, yeah, to believe that it's like, you know, this can absolutely work for you, and that's what the framework's for, is to help it work for you.
Susan Friedmann [00:28:26]:
It's such a wonderful framework. Excellent. Thank you so much. And I know we could keep on talking about this. There's just so many different aspects, and I love the examples that you shared. Listeners, again, one of these podcast interviews that you're going to have to listen to over again to really get all the nuggets that, Jason shared with us. So thank you so much for sharing your wisdom, Jason.
And listeners, by the way, if your book isn't selling the way you wanted or expect it to, let's you and I jump on a quick call together to brainstorm ways to ramp up those sales because you've invested a whole lot of time, money, and energy, and it's time you got the return you were hoping for.
Go to BookMarketingBrainstorm.com to schedule your free call. And in the meantime, I hope this powerful interview sparks some ideas you can use to sell more books. Until next week, here's wishing you much book and author marketing success.
