Susan Friedmann [00:00:31]:

 Welcome to Book Marketing Mentors, the weekly podcast where you learn proven strategies, tools, ideas, and tips from the masters. Every week, I introduce you to a marketing master who will share their expertise to help you market and sell more books. 

 Today, my special guest is Dr. Thomas Trautman, who's known as the Happy Tribes builder. Thomas has a background in artificial intelligence and an impressive career at major corporations such as IBM, HP, XP and AOL. He's an entrepreneur and certified neuromarketing instructor. He's the creator of the “Ethical Persuasion Formula”. He combines brain science and ethical persuasion globally Through his training, his coaching, his workshops, and seminars, helping to make a positive impact in the world. all the way from the south of France, Thomas, what an absolute pleasure it is to welcome you to the show, and thank you for being this week's a guest expert and mentor.

 

Thomas Trautmann [00:01:38]:

 Well, thanks for the very warm welcome, Susan.

 

Susan Friedmann [00:01:41]:

 Well, you had me on your show the other day, and I was like, okay. We're going to have you on this show because you've got so much incredible information and looking at marketing from a completely different standpoint than most people. So I think a good place for us to start is, I mentioned in your intro, the “Ethical Persuasion Formula”. What does that actually mean? What is that?

 

Thomas Trautmann [00:02:12]:

The "Ethical Persuasion Formula" is a way to summarize ethical persuasion, which is how I always say, it's a way for you to get from others the decisions you want Well, they make the decisions they need, and that's all related to how the brain makes decisions and how you can tap into that science to a get more.

 

Susan Friedmann [00:02:37]:

 Wow. That is beautiful in terms of our authors because as you And I discussed earlier, authors have a book, and they're often not sure about how to go about Letting people know about their book and obviously the value that that book provides. So How would they do it using this “Ethical Persuasion Formula”?

 

Thomas Trautmann [00:03:06]:

Well, they will have to, revert a little bit of thinking because very often, you write a book first of all for yourself because you wanted to write something. You thought that, what you're writing May please some other people, may bring value, may teach them something, but you've started by writing the book because it has to come out of your head. If you want then to persuade other people to read your book, to pay for that book, you have to drive the decision. You have to make them want to do that. And for that, you have to find something which is the 1st parameter of the “Ethical Persuasion Formula”, which is called the subconscious frustration, because because it has been demonstrated, in fact, scientifically, without any doubt that in fact, we don't make rational decisions. The part of the brain making the decisions is called the primal brain, and it runs in the subconscious part of our brain. We only rationalize a decision afterwards. It's like when you buy, let's say, a new watch, A new piece of clothing, and then on the way home, you just try to convince yourself that what you just bought makes a lot of sense.

 

Thomas Trautmann [00:04:18]:

 I mean, I think everyone can relate to that experience.

 

Susan Friedmann [00:04:21]:

 Women do it all the time.

 

Thomas Trautmann [00:04:23]:

 Yeah. Well, men do it too. So you have to find that subconscious frustration and talk to the brain and explain that your book is going to help remove a specific subconscious frustration. And every human being has many subconscious frustrations, and you have to find the one that's related to your book, to your content that needs to be removed as fast as possible. And it has nothing to do with your book. It has nothing to do with your content of your book. It has Nothing to do with you. It has all and everything to do with them.

 

Susan Friedmann [00:04:57]:

 Okay. So, obviously, This is opening Pandora's box, Thomas.

 

Thomas Trautmann [00:05:03]:

 Exactly. So,

 

Susan Friedmann [00:05:04]:

 You know, I knew we would go there. Okay. How do we get into somebody else's subconscious brain? It's hard enough getting into our own, let alone getting into somebody else's.

 

Thomas Trautmann [00:05:16]:

 Yes. Exactly. And that's in fact where it makes life very painful for marketing people. Because before, Marketing people have the natural tendency to think they knew what their clients wanted. But as you are not your client, you don't know. You may have experience that you still don't know. You have people who create, research groups, you know, where you invite people, you ask a specific question and they answer to that question. But just the fact that you asked them a specific question, you already have twisted their mind to reply to that question in a specific way.

 

Thomas Trautmann [00:05:50]:

 It's already going wrong. So going into the subconscious mind is a bit complit. Because, of course, your clients, potential buyers, readers don't know themselves what their subconscious frustration is. So either you have quite some experience, like, people like me would have to start Figure out what that subconscious frustration could be, or you can call people like me who use then neuroscientific methodologies To dive into the subconscious brain and extract that information. Because the good news is that that subconscious brain, that primal brain expresses itself through physiological signals. You can analyze the voice, for example. If currently you're writing down what I'm saying, if I say, I'm so happy to be on this show, my words say that I'm happy, but my voice says exactly the contrary. I exaggerated it, but in fact, the primal brain sends signals like that through the voice.

 

Thomas Trautmann [00:06:53]:

 So we can analyze the voice When we talk with people, you can go, deeper and use something that all spy Police movie fans know it's called the lie detector. In fact, the lie detector is just a way to connect with the primal brain Because it analyzes the microconductivity at the tip of your fingers because your primal brand sends droplets of sweat The tip of your fingers that changes the conductivity of your skin, your heart rate, your breathing rate, your pulse, all those things can be analyzed. And the ultimate tool, but I think that would be a bit too expensive for an author, is to go inside the magnetic resonance imagery. You know those key donuts? You slide someone into the donut, and you get real time imagery in three dimensions of the part of the body you wanna analyze, and that helps at the moment to analyze a lot of the brain functions.

 

Susan Friedmann [00:07:47]:

 

Okay. So this

 

Thomas Trautmann [00:07:48]:

 

is getting very expensive. Very yes.

 

Susan Friedmann [00:07:50]:

 

And it's also getting very scientific, and I'm Like, okay. Let's backtrack and get how can we make this practical? So one of the things that you said, Absolutely. Your voice. Your voice speaks volumes. You know? Are you happy? Are you sad? Are you frustrated? The tone of your voice. Yes. Even through the voice, I think you can tell sometimes or many times if somebody isn't telling the truth Just the way they say it because you may not be able to see, you know, exactly if their fingers are sweating or

 

Thomas Trautmann [00:08:26]:

 

What's going on with them? You may see other clues. In fact, that's called the the female 6th sense. No. Women don't have some magic device that they are using. It's just that women through the evolution of the human species We're, in fact, the the heart of the tribe, and we're able to, analyze various physiological parameters. Because as being part of the tribe and the social element of the tribe, you had to pay attention to, how well people felt, If there were problems, if there are communication issues, stuff like that, which men were not, focusing on because they were hunting. So men are very good at being silent alone in their cave, you know, as some books are saying, and women were the social element. So women are way more Efficient at reading very subtle signals, like the change of the skin color, for example, or the movement of the eyes, stuff like that.

 

Thomas Trautmann [00:09:25]:

 

You know? Like, a man should never lie to his wife looking her directly in the eyes because she will know it. So if you have cheated

 

Susan Friedmann [00:09:33]:

 Oh, yes. Yeah. 

Thomas Trautmann [00:09:34]:

 If you have cheated and she ask you if you have cheated, just look at your shoes or clean the kitchen and lie. Stuff like that.

 

Susan Friedmann [00:09:44]:

 Yes. I always knew. Women are definitely very astute in terms of picking up on things that you write. Men often do not pick up on. So

 

Thomas Trautmann [00:09:56]:

 No. We are not wired for that. So

 

Susan Friedmann [00:10:00]:

 what would you recommend with regard to people's book and going out there and even talking about The content of the book. I mean, the value. How would you take your ethical persuasion And utilize it then in a conversation.

 

Thomas Trautmann [00:10:23]:

 

1st of all, you need to know exactly who your audience is. You have to be absolutely precise about that. That's not something that every marketer knows. You have to know who you are selling to or who you are trying to persuade. So you need to know exactly who your book is made for. If your book is made for women aged 54 to 67, for example, Don't try to convince or to persuade a woman or a man. Let's say a man which is 18 to 25. No.

 

Thomas Trautmann [00:10:54]:

 If you are selling a book that's for people who are traveling, don't try to sell it to someone living, for example, in the middle of the France and who is a farmer. You have to know exactly who your audience is. And by knowing who your audience is very precisely, I'm sorry, but there is no, magic wand here that you can, Move around and let you get the solution. You have to work a little bit to get there. You have to understand what is driving that person. For example, if you are selling books for the middle aged I'm using a woman example because I'm talking to a woman right now, yourself. If you are saying to a middle aged woman, let's say, 40 ish or so, who picks up a child at school, Maybe the subconscious frustration of that person is to be the center of the group of women and everyone gathered around her to talk with her, And she's not the one who's left aside and no one wants to be with. That may have nothing to do with your book, but maybe your book is bringing her enough information so that she can share that information and look bright in front of the other moms.

 

Thomas Trautmann [00:12:01]: 

Her subconscious frustrations will be being recognized and admired. When you're talking about your book, you have to explain or you have to say that, I I understand perfectly that in front of the school. Life can be very harsh, but, what if by just reading a few words, you would become the focus point of the school?

 

Susan Friedmann [00:12:23]: 

It does make sense. I love that example. You know, my love is niche marketing, and you and I talked about that. And so you're absolutely right again that you've got to know your audience and their frustrations. What are their challenges? What's going on in their life? And again, how can your book And the material that you offer your expertise, be of help to them. Exactly. They don't care that you wrote a book, But they can't not the value of the information inside.

Thomas Trautmann [00:13:00]: 

Yes. How it is going to help them. Marketing people call it what's in it for me. You know? Mhmm. So that's a bit that, but way deeper. You cannot stay at this conscious level. Using rational arguments is not going to work because the primal brain, the decision maker in the brain doesn't work at a rational level. You really have to show to that brain that you can remove that subconscious frustration.

 

Thomas Trautmann [00:13:23]:

 

In fact, to make life a bit more complex, You have to show to that primal brain that it will gain something. It has to be an immediate gain. It cannot be a gain in the a future because the primal brain doesn't know the future. Your future, planification, you know, having desires for the future, stuff like that

 

Thomas Trautmann [00:13:47]:

 That's typically something from the rational brain called the neocortex, and it's not working with the primal brain. So when you say you are going Today, this this afternoon, you are going when you read the book, you read the book in the car, you go to pick up your kids, and you are going to be this focus point. So it's now. And that gain, that's where it becomes a bit, complaining, has to be, and it has been measured. I mean, there are people who have an absolutely amazing life. The gain that the primal brain has to fill should be 2.3 times higher than the cost of making the decision. Okay. So I think now I lost 50% off the internet.

 

Susan Friedmann [00:14:26]:

 But that's okay. I mean, it's like it's got to be instant. I mean, we do live in an instant society, so this sort of fits in is how what can you offer that somebody can use right now to help them. Because as you say, this is what they're interested in. Where can they get something? What's in it for them right this instant?

 

Thomas Trautmann [00:14:49]:

 What's in it for the primal brain?

 The primal brain lives in a 7 second window. What's before, it's gone. What's after, it's not existing. It's leaving that 7 seconds window. In fact, a very good exercise that you can do Because the primal brain works a little bit like a 2 year, 3 year old child. You have 7 seconds To persuade a 2 year old child to buy your book. Try that.

 

Susan Friedmann [00:15:17]:

 A 2 year old to buy your book.

 

Thomas Trautmann [00:15:19]:

  To buy your book, you have 7 seconds.

 

Susan Friedmann [00:15:22]:

 They want something to eat.

 

Thomas Trautmann [00:15:26]:

 Maybe. Maybe.

 

Susan Friedmann [00:15:28]:

 Or some shiny object. Yes.

 

Thomas Trautmann [00:15:31]:

 Yeah. But for all the people listening, try to find a way to persuade a 3-year-old child. If you can make it, it's going to be it will be interesting. I mean, for authors, for book writers, it may be a bit easier if you are in the fiction world because you can tell a story. And the brain loves stories. In fact, the brain uses stories to store information because stories drive Emotions and you need emotions to make a decision. Like, there was a guy called Antonio D'Amazio who demonstrated this in 1995. The fact that you cannot make a decision without emotions.

 

Thomas Trautmann [00:16:06]:

 I put an s at the end because in fact, it has to be an emotional variation. You have to take them from 1 stage to another stage to create the decision, to induce the decision. It's not about just make them happy. Happy is Okay. But there is no contrast, and the primal brain runs on contrast.

 

Susan Friedmann [00:16:25]:

 Is that what you call the secret brain door to get more?

 

Thomas Trautmann [00:16:30]:

 It's the “Ethical Persuasion Formula”.

 

Susan Friedmann [00:16:37]:

 Talk to us about that. That sounds intriguing.

 

Thomas Trautmann [00:16:40]:

 Well, that formula is to ethically persuade someone. And I said it has 4 parameters. The very first one is the subconscious frustration. You have to know what the subconscious frustration or frustrations is or are, then that's a good thing because you can talk about yourself now. Because up to now, it was all about them. The second thing is you have to know who you are very precisely because that's going to make them resonate with you. You cannot get your whole market to buy your book. If I split the market, you are 60% let's say you are writing A book about marketing for bakers.

 

Thomas Trautmann [00:17:22]:

 

Okay? People who have a bakery. 60% of the bakers are never going to buy your book. You can do whatever you want. They are not interested. 38% may be interested, and 2% need you now to help them. So those 2 person, if you know that's your conscious frustration, if you can precisely tell them who you are, I'm going to resonate with you. As you said, I'm the happy tribes builder. I think I'm the only guy in the world who is calling himself that way because you have to be unique.

 

Thomas Trautmann [00:17:54]:

 If you aren't unique, there is no contrast, and the brain cannot make a decision.

 

Susan Friedmann [00:18:00]:

 Well, it also makes you more memorable if you're unique.

 

Thomas Trautmann [00:18:03]:

 Absolutely. It helps you to tell a story. And, again, the story helps you to get memorized. When you ask people who are you, most of the people are going to say, well, I'm Thomas, but that's just your first name. It was given to you by your parents. There are many Thomases. There are many Susans out there. There are many people with your first name.

 

Thomas Trautmann [00:18:21]:

 Then you can say, okay. I'm Thomas Hartmann. But okay. But Hartmann is a family name. It comes from the history of my family. It doesn't define who I am. I can say I'm a business owner. I'm an entrepreneur, but there are many out there.

 

Thomas Trautmann [00:18:33]:

 

I'm an author. There are many out there. So what makes you absolutely unique? And it's very interesting to see when you ask that question. It takes time. I mean, it took me 50 years, and I'm 57 now to understand it. And I think it's sad when people say, but, no, I'm just, you know, a mom, and that's it. And you said, but don't you? You are someone else and that no. I'm just a it happened to me once, and the lady was, I'm I'm a mom.

 

Thomas Trautmann [00:18:56]:

 

I'm happy with that. Okay. Good for you, but I think it's sad. So find what makes you unique. So that's the 2nd parameter. Who are you? The third one is why are you doing what you are doing? If you're just doing that to make money, maybe if you are saying to people who want to make money too, You are going to resonate. But maybe why are you doing things? You know? I'm doing what I'm doing. My why is that I want the world to be smiling.

 

Thomas Trautmann [00:19:21]:

 

I want a better world, and that better world is coming from the fact that we are smiling. That's why I'm doing things. How I do that is by helping people to get more. I could be a clown. I could be an actor, but in fact, I'm a coach, I'm a trainer, an author, etcetera. So the why is the 3rd part and the final part is the tribe because we humans are a tribal species. We cannot live alone. We can't.

 

Thomas Trautmann [00:19:48]:

 

We are going ballistic if we are alone. I mean, if you look at the worst thing that you can do to a prisoner is to put them alone in a cell and no more talk to them. People who are going into space, there is always someone on the line for them to talk If they are alone up there and they never go alone nowadays, so you have a tribe. We are part of many tribes. Our family is a tribe. If there are people listening who are working in the office, the division is a tribe. The company is a tribe. Your church is a tribe.

 

Thomas Trautmann [00:20:19]:

 

Your sports club is a tribe, And I could go on and on like that. You are either a leader or a follower in a tribe. And when you want to persuade people, you want To be the leader and them to be the followers. Because new followers, once they are part of your tribe, they trust you. They like you, And you have 70% chances to sell to someone who likes you and who loves you versus 5 to 20% to someone who never heard of you. I prefer to go for the 70% personally.

 

Susan Friedmann [00:20:49]:

 

Me too. I'm with you on that one. This is so fascinating. I'm like, you're taking us down so many different avenues here, yet it comes back to Things that we've heard before. The importance of story now, and in companies, their products, everything has to have a story To make it interesting, and as you say, unique. And it's going to stand out and be memorable it. Because if it isn't memorable, then people won't remember to buy it or think of it when they need it.

 

Thomas Trautmann [00:21:26]:

 

Yeah. Exactly. I mean, there's a very good example. This whole thing started 15, 20 years ago when neuromarketing came. So neuromarketing was implementing neuroscience for marketing sales and strategy. I think the very first big Neuromarketing study was made by Pepsi Cola. They used an MRI, for example, because Pepsi Cola was a bit Worried that every blind test, Pepsi Cola was winning. You know? 70% of people prefer Pepsi Cola in a blind test.

 

Thomas Trautmann [00:21:58]:

 

Surprisingly, Coca Cola says 3 times more than Pepsi Cola at the time they did the the experiment. So they put people Inside an MRI and check what parts of the brain of people were lighting when they were tasting Pepsi, when they were tasting Coke, When they were seeing Pepsi Cola ads, Coca Cola ads, everything. They tried everything. I think it costed them a quarter of 1,000,000 of dollars to run that study. In fact, when you drink Pepsi Cola because there is more sugar in it, you lighten up the reward center of the brain because the brain loves sugar. It's part of the gas that makes the brain run with oxygen, and there is a little less in coke. So That's why on a short period of time, the brand prefers Pepsi Cola. But then when they were showing ads, you know, and that's why I'm circling back to stories, Every time they showed something about Coca Cola, it was the emotional part of the brain that was lighting up, it.

 

Thomas Trautmann [00:22:59]:

 

Which means in fact that Coke is embedded into the brain of consumers because of the stories they are always telling. They became a story. So if you are not an addict of 1 of the 2 brands, when you want a soda and you go to the supermarket, the first one that you pick would be a Coke.

 

Susan Friedmann [00:23:16]:

 

Fascinating. And I remember that study. I didn't realize that it was so in-depth the way they did it, but I do remember that whole talk that people, as you said, in that blind test prefer Pepsi, whereas when they go out, they order Coke. More often than not, you know, people do order Coke. I pay attention, funnily enough, when people, you know, make those orders at restaurants.

Susan Friedmann [00:23:41]:

 And they get very upset if they'd say, well, I'm afraid we only have Pepsi.

 Thomas Trautmann [00:23:47]:

 Yeah. Because it's emotional. It's becoming emotional. The story is very important. So, theoretically, authors have a step ahead of the rest of the people who are trying to do that because authors are maybe better at writing stories. The value of a story is that first of all, you only tell stories to people you trust. For the people who are working in an office or so, On the Monday morning, when you're coming to the office, you only tell what's happened during the weekend, what you did with your children, with your sports club, with a new girlfriend to people you trust. The guy you hate, you're not going to tell him about your weekend.

 

Thomas Trautmann [00:24:26]:

 

You know? So Telling a story to someone shows that you trust them. And the second thing it does, it hijacks the primal brain. When you tell story the right way, you hijack the primal brain. I mean, that's why people are crying during a movie. When you are crying because Kevin Costner is dying, that's your primal brain because your primal brain, in fact, has been hijacked and thinks You are the one who is dying. While the rational brain perfectly knows that Ken Costner is not dying and that he's going to make millions with that movie, but still The little drop is coming out of your eye.

 

Susan Friedmann [00:25:05]:

 Oh, and I'm a sucker for all of that. I mean, I cry at the advertisement. So

 

Thomas Trautmann [00:25:11]:

 Okay. So someone says don't cry during, yeah, that pison, but will cry during the movie. Yeah. It's just about hijacking the brain, And you can do that each time you tell a story.

 

Susan Friedmann [00:25:21]:

 That's great.

 

Thomas Trautmann [00:25:22]:

 Tell a story with an emotional variation in it, then it's a jackpot.

 

Susan Friedmann [00:25:27]:

 Is there a way to tell this story that you can hijack that element?

 

Thomas Trautmann [00:25:33]:

 Yeah. You just circle back to the “Ethical Persuasion Formula”, you talk about the subconscious frustration. You show them the pain they have with that subconscious frustration. You show them how that subconscious frustration can be removed and how life is going to be without it, And you end up with a call to action, and you have the story. I mean, George Lucas said it very nicely is to make a great movie, You have to have a a fantastic start, an explosive end, and don't scrub in the middle. That's the same thing. And by showing them how Painful life is at the moment and how great it's going to be, guess what? You just created a variation of emotions, which drives a decision. There is a little trick I can teach your audience.

 

Thomas Trautmann [00:26:19]:

 I can do that with just 1 question.

 

Susan Friedmann [00:26:22]:

 Which is?

 

Thomas Trautmann [00:26:23]:

 It's called the "what-if" question. Let's talk it back to our lady in the front of the school. What if you would be the focus point every day at 4 when you go pick up your child? In that question, I showed her what the pain is because she's not the focus point. I showed her what life would be, the folk being the focus point, When it would happen and the benefit she gets. Everything is in 1 question, and that question took me less than 7 seconds.

 

Susan Friedmann [00:26:52]:

 That's beautiful. Well, if they don't get anything else, our listeners are going to get the what if.

 

Thomas Trautmann [00:26:58]:

 Yeah. In fact, the what if you do it with 3 questions so that you really excited. The subconscious frustration and wait is really powerful. This technique is really powerful because between each what if a question. Each of the 3 what if questions, you wait 4 seconds. Not less, not more. You have to learn to count 4 seconds because 4 seconds is long. You know? Even with my own experience, I still count.

 

Thomas Trautmann [00:27:25]:

 My technique is 1, 0 zero two, 003, 004, and then you go for the next what if question.

 

Susan Friedmann [00:27:34]:

 So you're asking the what if Four tie 3 times or 4 times. Is that correct? No.

 

Thomas Trautmann [00:27:39]:

 I have 3 different what ifs that are all connected to the subconscious frustration.

 

Susan Friedmann [00:27:44]:

 Okay.

 Thomas Trautmann [00:27:44]:

 That show a different way.

 

Susan Friedmann [00:27:46]:

 Okay. So you're giving the scenario, though.

 

Thomas Trautmann [00:27:49]:

 For example, I'm targeting married business owners, And I know that their frustrations, their subconscious frustration are connected with trust, success, and fun. I say fun because there's a three letter Word that you cannot use on the cover of a book when you're trying to sell to business owners, but it's what if you could have more trust from your partner and your clients? What if you could have more success inside your couple and your business? And then what if you would have more fun with your spouse and your clients. I'm covering every of the super conversations of my potential clients in 3 questions. And as I wait for seconds, Their brain is starting to think about their problem, their subconscious frustration, and how the world is going to be after that. But in 4 seconds, they don't have the time to finish that thinking. So I have to mention hasn't kicked in yet.

It tries to kick in, but it doesn't have the time to. But as I am the one asking the question, that's targeting the subconscious frustration. And as their brain has started to think about the solution, I'm the one who solved the problem without having done anything. 

 Susan Friedmann [00:29:03]:

 I love it. Oh my goodness. So I know, Thomas, that our listeners will want to find out more. How can they find you? How Can they get ahold of your book? I mean, my mind is just going crazy at the moment, which We could be going in so many different directions, but over to you. How can they find you?

 

Thomas Trautmann [00:29:26]:

 My website is Happy-Brains.com. On LinkedIn, it's Thomas Trautmann. On Facebook, it's Thomas Trautmann.. It's Thomas Trautmann anywhere. If you want the new book, it will be happydashbrains.com/mbo-book, I think. The page is not yet online, but it will be on December 1st.

 

Susan Friedmann [00:29:49]:

 This will be posted after that, so it'll be available then. Thomas, we always end off with, guest sharing a golden nugget. What's your golden nugget?

 Thomas Trautmann [00:30:04]:

 It's to be happy, smile. Smile because a genuine smile, you know, the one with the little wrinkles at the corner of the eyes. If you do it consciously, if you do a real nice smile consciously, you are going to shoot endorphins into your private brain, which makes it happy and which makes you smile even more. And because Office theories like the mirror neurons, the people around you will have their brain lighting up with the same desire to Smile and reward themselves with endorphins too, and we are going old to start smiling. And the more we smile, the better the world will be for our children. So smile.

 

Susan Friedmann [00:30:43]:

 I love it. Yes. You're making me smile. It's contagious. I just caught it from you. I know we can talk hours about all of this. I'm fascinated, but, we're running out of time. So thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with us.

And by the way, listeners, if your book isn't selling the way you wanted or expected to, let's you and I jump on a quick call to brainstorm ways to ramp up those sales because you've invested a whole lot of time, money, and energy, And it's time that you got the return you were hoping for, so go to BrainstormWithSusan.com to schedule your free call. And in the meantime, I hope this powerful interview sparks some ideas you can use to sell more books. Until next week, here's wishing you much book and author marketing success.