Susan Friedmann [00:00:31]:

Today, my special guest is Lauren Passell. Lauren is the founder of Tink Media, a podcast growth company. She's the editor of Podcast the Newsletter and Podcast Marketing Magic, co-hosts Feed the Queue, and writes about podcasts for Lifehacker.
She's been sharing her wisdom on podcast marketing at events like Radio Bootcamp, Podcast Movement, Podfest, London Podcast Festival, and many more. She's also a judge for Signal Awards and the International Women's Podcast Awards. WOW pretty impressive!
Lauren, what a privilege it is to welcome you to the show.
And, thank you for being this week’s guest expert and mentor.

Lauren Passell [00:01:37]:

Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to talk about my two favorite things, podcasts and books.

Susan Friedmann [00:01:43]:

Well, you're definitely in the right place. So, Lauren, you know that podcasts are near and dear to both of our hearts. As I mentioned to you earlier, Book Marketing Mentors is coming up for its 400th episode.

Lauren Passell [00:01:58]:

Congratulations. That's a lot of work.

Susan Friedmann [00:02:00]:

Thank you. I can barely believe it myself. I can remember when I first started, and over the years, I've seen how podcasts have grown in popularity. You know, you and I discussed this a little beforehand, how many of my listeners and my own authors ask, How can podcasts help them in their marketing? Not only in their book marketing but also as nonfiction authors. So, Lauren, what sage advice would you give them?

Lauren Passell [00:02:31]:

I think pitching yourself to podcasts To be a guest, I think, should be a huge part of every book marketing campaign. Huge. I think it's Underutilized. And I think that's because it's often misunderstood, and people are a little afraid of doing it, and they don't know how to find the right shows. But it really is perfect because podcasters want storytellers, and writers are the best storytellers, Also, writers are full of stories. So they are able to go on podcasts about writing and because they're writers, but if their book is about, You know if it's a memoir about their family, there are podcasts about memoirs. If it's about food, there are podcasts about food. So There are just endless options.

Lauren Passell [00:03:17]:

You don't have to just be pitching book podcasts, and then everyone is aware of how intimate Podcasts are. It feels like you're having this personal conversation with a host. When I listen to your show, Susan, I'm listening because I like you. And if you have a guest on, I'm going to automatically like them because I like you, and that's why I'm listening. So You get this thumbs up from this host that you, you know, are opting in to listen to. And, also, podcasts, They're much longer than many spots that are on TV even. So listeners really get to understand what this person is all about, what they care about, what their story is. It's limitless.

Lauren Passell [00:04:00]:

But you could have a 45-minute conversation, I listened to the Ezra Klein show, and I've probably bought 200 books from that. I listened to the Ezra Klein show. I've probably bought 200 books from that show, so it really drives people to buy. And I think it's just a great way to get into these people's ears and also into the perfect audience, their ears.

Susan Friedmann [00:04:27]:

Wow. That's so true. It's not necessarily about the book but rather about the expertise that authors can share and their thought leadership. I like it when I bring guests on, and they don't necessarily have to have a book. However, it's their expertise that I'm really interested in them sharing. Just like yourself with podcast marketing and finding podcasts, which, by the way, is such a great segue into another question that I often get asked, which is how do you become a guest on a podcast? And then, where do you find the right podcast to be on?

Lauren Passell [00:05:06]:

Yeah. Well, first, I have to say that podcasters are looking for storytellers, and so I would think of yourself as a storyteller. I know it's like a small difference between an author and a storyteller, but It is important. One thing that's different about podcasts, you know, it's such a new medium, and these podcasters want stories. They don't necessarily care that your book just came out. I worked in book publishing, and I found a lot of magazines, blogs, and traditional media, want to write about your book when it's brand new because they're breaking news about a new book. They want to be talking about the hottest books Out there. What's now? And sometimes podcasts care about that.

Lauren Passell [00:05:49]:

But as I said, they're more interested in storytelling. So if you're pitching yourself as a storyteller rather than this book just came out, you know, you're really opening a lot of doors. It doesn't matter if your book came out 2 years ago. If you have a good story, the right podcast will want to have you on as a guest. And I always tell people to really think about when their paperback comes out. That's another good time because you probably still need a little bit of Marketing, and there's less opportunity in other forms of media if it's a paperback, you know, but not with podcasts because you are a storyteller. I would think of yourself as a storyteller first and foremost, and there's so many ways to find these podcasts. First of all, there are a lot of writing podcasts that specifically interview authors about their books, and definitely search for those. You can search for those with a Google search.

Lauren Passell [00:06:41]:

There is a website called Player FM, and it's actually a listening app, but they have a great website. This will sound a little like I'm hacking the system, but I will type in, like, pretend that I wrote a book about gardening. I would type in best gardening podcasts, Player FM. I would type that into my Google search bar. The Player FM Website has tons of lists, really specific lists. I guarantee you that if you do this right now, there will be a list of podcasts. There will be a page that says best gardening podcasts. And what I like about Player FM is on the list right front and center, it says the last episode date.

Lauren Passell [00:07:22]:

So you can tell if the podcast is still running. Or if it's 5 years old, you probably don't want to pitch a show that hasn't had an episode come out in 5 years. But this is how you can start to build your list for yourself because that's the most important thing, making this list. Another thing you can do is Look up authors that are similar to you and find out what podcasts they have been on, and you can Google this and write down those podcasts. As you begin to make your list, you can go on websites like there's a website called Listen Notes, and there's Say, you know, go back to Player FM. And if you search for these shows that you're finding, there's always, you know, an area that says you might also like. Always go to those places because they are going to show shows that are similar. And if you do find a really good show, a writing show, Or a gardening show, if you have a gardening book, look it up in your Apple Podcast listening app and other listening apps like Spotify.

Lauren Passell [00:08:21]:

If you scroll to the bottom, there's always a section that says listeners also like this, and that is more Data. That's Apple Podcast data telling you that these shows are similar to the show that you're looking at. So this is how you start to build this list. I also want to tell you about my favorite website. It's called raponic.com/graph, and raponic is a Analytics tool podcasts use to learn about their data. However, you have to pay for it, but Rephonic .com/graph is free. And if you find a good podcast, a good writing podcast, like, there's one called, let's Pretend hashtag I am writing is one that I like. Type that in when you go to rephonic.com/graph, and it will show you this three-dimensional, Beautiful galaxy of podcasts.

Lauren Passell [00:09:13]:

It's like your podcast neighborhood. You'll be able to see it visually. You can swivel the screen around and see other shows similar to the show you searched for. So the farther they are from the show you searched for, The less overlap there is, but you'll usually find a lot of great shows that have audience overlap, and that's what you're looking for. Those are a few really good ways to get started building a list, which is really the first step.

Susan Friedmann [00:09:37]:

Oh my goodness. I'm writing down like crazy. There were some of the tools that I know, but there's this: Rephonic. I've never heard of that before. I can't wait to get onto the computer and try it out. And then the whole idea of the best gardening podcast or, you know, the best Marketing podcast or whatever your topic is and put it into the Player FM. That's fabulous information. Listeners, this is one of those episodes you're going to have to listen to over and over.

Susan Friedmann [00:10:11]:

You're definitely going to find all the information in the transcript for the show.

Lauren Passell [00:10:15]:

I joke that I should get rephonic.com/graph tattooed on my arm because I show it to my clients. Sometimes I'll be on Zoom with them, and I'll say, I'm about to show you something. Please at least pretend to act excited because if you don't act excited, my feelings are going to be hurt. I can't wait till you see it because it's beautiful. It's very fun. Sometimes I mean, Friday night, I pour a glass of wine, and I play around on .com/graph. I'm not joking.

Lauren Passell [00:10:42]:

They do not pay me to say this.

Susan Friedmann [00:10:44]:

I absolutely love it. This tool sounds amazing. Thanks so much for recommending it, Lauren. You know, I've heard other experts talk about the importance of Listening to several episodes of a podcast before pitching them. You want to be sure that it's a good fit and that they actually interview people. Funnily enough, I received a note this morning from someone pitching a guest who's already been on my show. Clearly, they didn't bother checking the site or doing any sort of research beforehand. You know, it's always a good idea to do some of that research to avoid any potential embarrassment.

Lauren Passell [00:11:24]:

I'm going to guess that that's not even the worst pitch you've received because I bet you've gotten pitches for people that have nothing to do with Marketing or writing because there's a lot of PR people who just send out blasts. You really don't want to do that, but I always laugh When I hear about some of the pitch letters that podcasters get because they often just make no sense.

Susan Friedmann [00:11:47]:

Well yes. And I specifically don't want people to have just Written and published a book. Just because they have published a book doesn't necessarily interest me. I want to know their Expertise in how they can help my listeners. That's far more important to me. If they also have a book, then obviously, it's an added bonus. Of course, if the book is on the subject we're discussing, that's even better. However, if you don't have a book, That's alright too.

Lauren Passell [00:12:19]:

I think you just said something really important. What can you teach? You want people who can teach your listener something. Everyone should write that down because I have a friend who has a podcast called Podcast Bestie, it is a podcast that helps podcasters. Susan, you might like it. It has a lot of marketing advice for podcasters on it. Courtney is the host, and she says on every single episode, Anyone that can teach me something, I'll have them on my podcast, anyone. That's what podcasters want, that more than anything else, Even if it's not a complete subject match if you can teach something, you know, we can get into how to pitch and what these letters should look like, but that's what you should be thinking with every single word you write.

Lauren Passell [00:13:00]:

How can I teach something that these listeners don't already know or that they might need help with?

Susan Friedmann [00:13:05]:

I love that. And it's a perfect segue because I would love you to dive into the intriguing topic of pitching, which often is a huge obstacle for many authors. They found an awesome podcast they would love to be a guest on, And they're thinking, how on earth can I pitch myself in a way that captivates the host's interest? So, Lauren,

Lauren Passell [00:13:43]:

Sometimes, it might be on their website, or if they have social media, it might be there. There is a way to find podcasters' email addresses Because every podcast has an RSS feed, that's where the podcast lives. In order to have an RSS feed, you need to have an email address. So you can search RSS feeds for the at symbol, and that will highlight the person's email address. It doesn't always work. This is like a secret Because sometimes they'll have, you know, a fake email address in there, but every once in a while, you can get an email address there. And I will tell you, if you go to listen to notes, That is kind of like Wikipedia for podcasts. I mentioned it before.

Lauren Passell [00:14:22]:

There is a place on listen notes where you can search a podcast RSS feed. If I'm looking for the email address, I select RSS feed. I do a search for the at symbol, and often, I will find the email address there. So once you've made your list of shows, you've gotten all of those email addresses, that's when you can write your letter. My goal is always every year to have 0 pitch letters for my team. And what I mean by that is I don't want to do blasts. I want personal letters to people that I'm friendly with or that I've already established a relationship with. That makes me think about advising everyone to Follow them on social media first.

Lauren Passell [00:15:00]:

Subscribe to their newsletter first because then, when you ask to be on their show, they know that you're part of their community. I would even say, you know, if they have a newsletter, subscribe to their newsletter, read their newsletter, open it up so they know you're opening it up, Become familiar with their newsletter, and then instead of sending the cold pitch, respond to the last newsletter that they sent out with your pitch. It's just a thought. It won't work for everyone, but, you know, I have a newsletter. I have 2. I don't have time to read every single pitch I get Because I get pitched. People want to be in my newsletter. Podcasters do.

Lauren Passell [00:15:37]:

I don't have time to read all those pitches. But if I send out a newsletter, I'm going to Read every response to that newsletter because I want to make sure I didn't spell something wrong or, you know, there's a mistake. And so if I get a response, Someone asking to be my newsletter, I'm like, oh my gosh. This person reads my newsletter. They're part of my community. I'm absolutely going to read that pitch and take into special consideration that they're part of my community. It's a way to show them that you're part of a community before you even pitch, like a pre-pitch. And then when it comes to writing a letter, I would write A template for yourself that you can kind of, you know, bare bones to send everyone, but individualize each one.

Lauren Passell [00:16:14]:

Maybe at the very beginning, explain why you like the show. It's always nice to start out with a compliment. I've heard podcasters say they don't like it when someone emails them and compliments them on the most recent episode because it seems rather obvious that they just found you and Listen to the first thing that they saw. So maybe search for an episode that you actually might really like and talk about that episode. And then, really, the point of this letter is to get them to open the door. You don't have to tell your whole life story. I worked in book publishing for a long time, and that is why I started Tink I noticed we weren't good at emailing podcasters To promote for our authors so that they could promote their books, and it's because it's a new media. It's completely different.

Lauren Passell [00:17:02]:

When traditional PR people are pitching, Generally, they are saying this book comes out this date. Here are the quotes. Here are the rave reviews. It's all about the book. Here's what I can teach your listeners, and here's the story that I want to tell on your podcast. So what I would do is make a very short note at the top And then a photo of you, a photo of your book, and a little bit of information about the book and explain why you're such a good storyteller and what you want to share. You need to get them to get interested enough to respond. Then you can go in with more information. An ideal pitch letter for a podcaster is 100 or 300 words.

Susan Friedmann [00:17:49]:

Yes. Woah. 300 words is already quite a lot, but I already like the idea of personalizing it. And what if we have an actual podcast, one-sheet? I know some people sort of debate whether or not it's necessary, But you mentioned having a photo with you, with the book, and maybe a blurb about what you'll be discussing. So would that go on the individual one sheet, or is it something you would include in the letter?

Lauren Passell [00:18:24]:

When I worked in book publishing, I worked for Little Brown, and we were all about PDFs and one-sheets. It's not what we do at Tink, And I don't think that that's what podcasters want to see. Kind of when I was saying before, I want to do 0 pitch letters, and more letters to a friend isn't another way that I think about my letters. I don't send my friends PDFs. I write a letter. I wrote a note. I do not use PDFs, and I don't advise anyone to if they're pitching podcasters. People don't like opening them.

Lauren Passell [00:18:56]:

They're very, like, stodgy. I mean, they serve a good purpose, but not here. I would really just pull the most important information and write it into the email. The photo should be embedded. There should be 0 attachments. It should be pretty simple.

Susan Friedmann [00:19:13]:

That's fascinating. It's quite contrary to what I've heard before. So you're telling us to pivot and explore this from a different perspective. I absolutely love the notion of sending a letter to a friend and just simply saying, hey.

Lauren Passell [00:19:29]:

Yeah. Saying, hey. Think of it. It's like you're saying I'm not a PR person with an agenda. I am a fan of your podcast, and I have a really good story to tell you. That's the way to think about it.

Susan Friedmann [00:19:42]:

Yes. That's a whole lot friendlier and more personal. It's like I'm just chatting with you, sharing something as a friend or a colleague or even an acquaintance, and I'm just simply sending you something personal.

Lauren Passell [00:19:55]:

And you can also offer to send them a book too. You know, sometimes I've been sending more PDFs of books, and people have been appreciating that more. But if you can send them even a galley or Amazon them a copy of the book, you know, that might really sweeten the deal.

Susan Friedmann [00:20:12]:

But only do that if they specifically ask for it instead of just thinking it will increase your chances of being invited as a guest. So what do you think? Should you actually send a book?

Lauren Passell [00:20:24]:

I wouldn't send it without asking. I would say I'd love to send you a book, respond to this email with your best mailing address, And then I would send a book with maybe a nice note if you are able to do that, but I wouldn't just do it without asking. It'll probably end up getting lost or confusing them, or it might feel invasive. I would ask.

Susan Friedmann [00:20:41]:

Because I have published books, I already have so many. So, honestly, I would much prefer a synopsis telling me why I should interview you, and I like your approach. I have a feeling that listeners might want to know more about How they can find out more about you and the services you offer. So, Lauren, take it away.

Lauren Passell [00:21:04]:

My website is Tink Media .co And if you forget, I named it after Tinker Bell because I love Disney. And that really is the best way. I'm, you know, at Lauren Passell on Twitter, and I'm on Twitter a lot. We have a lot of Free resources on Tink Media .co also. So we have a newsletter, and part of my company is marketing podcasts to other podcasts. Part of my company is marketing authors to podcasts, but a lot of the tips are the same for both authors and podcasters.

Susan Friedmann [00:21:37]:

I do love that. The other day, I was checking out your website, and guess what caught my eye? Podcast therapy. And then I thought to myself, do I need podcast therapy?

Lauren Passell [00:21:52]:

We call it podcast therapy because sometimes there's tears. You know what? This is an art that people pour their hearts and souls into, and so sometimes, there's a lot of emotion in these consulting sessions.

Susan Friedmann [00:22:04]:

I can totally believe that. My podcast is really important to me, and I know it's important to my listeners, too. So, Yes. I totally get where you're coming from. I love it. Lauren, you know that we always ask our guests for a golden nugget. Those final words of wisdom, what would you like to share with our listeners?

Lauren Passell [00:22:26]:

I would say think of yourself as more than just an author of a book but as a storyteller. I have booked clients on scary story podcasts because they've seen a ghost, and they tell the story about that. I was just booking someone on a podcast; he doesn't have a sense of smell, and he I booked him on a science podcast. So I would think widely about who you are, even if it doesn't tie directly to your book. If you can get on a podcast and talk about you and bring up the book, that's a win.

Susan Friedmann [00:23:01]:

Remember what we mentioned earlier? The real magic lies inside you, not just the book itself. While the book remains static, it's you who adds life and depth to it. You know, we all have the power to tell stories in our own unique way. We each have those captivating tales that are just begging to be shared. So as you've reminded us several times during this interview, let's keep embracing the art of storytelling whenever we get the chance.

Lauren Passell [00:23:35]:

Can I give one last tip I forgot to mention?

Susan Friedmann [00:23:38]:

Well, I'm sure listeners would absolutely love that, so go for it.

Lauren Passell [00:23:43]:

I was just thinking about how if you've been on a podcast already, you could always ask later, like, maybe a year later for example, I have a Latina author, and it's National Latinx Heritage Month this month. And I went and emailed Every single podcast that she was on last year and said, do you mind rerunning the episode for National Latinx Heritage Month? And 2 of them decided to do it. You know, oftentimes, podcasters, some of them run-in seasons. Some of them need a break. Some of them can't do an episode every month, So they often run reruns. And so if you have a paperback coming out or if you can think of a reason to talk about your book again, I would email them and say, hey. Consider rerunning this if you're ever taking a break, and a lot of podcasters take breaks. You know, Labor Day, there was a big break.

Lauren Passell [00:24:35]:

It was a lot of reruns or Christmas time. That might be a good time to email the person and say, hey. Are you taking a week off for New Year's Day or Christmas? Because you could definitely rerun my episode.

Susan Friedmann [00:24:47]:

That is an amazing idea. I've actually tried that strategy myself, and let me tell you, it works like a charm. Whenever I need something quick to share, I just do a rerun of somebody who truly left an impression. I mean, all my guests are great. But some of them just have that extra special something. And I can't help but agree, it's always exciting to Relive those memorable moments.

Lauren Passell [00:25:16]:

Well, in 400, that's a lot of episodes, so I bet you have a wide range.

Susan Friedmann [00:25:21]:

Absolutely. Having a diverse and incredible portfolio to choose from is simply amazing. I'm incredibly grateful to both my guests and listeners, as they are truly invaluable. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and the treasure trove of information that you've shared so generously.

And by the way, listeners, if your book isn't selling the way you want or expect it to, let's you and I jump on a quick call together to brainstorm ways that you and I can ramp up those sales because you've invested a whole lot of time, energy, and money, And it's time you got the return you were hoping for. So go to brainstorm with susan.com to schedule your free call. And in the meantime, I hope this powerful interview sparked some ideas You can use to sell more books. Until next week, here's wishing you much book and author marketing success.

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