Susan Friedmann [00:00:30]:
Welcome to Book Marketing Mentors, the weekly podcast where you learn proven strategies, tools, ideas, and tips from the masters. Every week, I introduce you to a marketing master who will share their expertise to help you market and sell more books. Today, my special guest is Megan Doherty. Megan is a digital marketing strategist with background in online business development and course creation. She cofounded 1 Stone Creative in 2017, bringing together content marketing strategy and broadcast audio experience to create high value podcasts for business owners and authors. In 2020, 1 stone creative developed the Business Podcast Blueprints and built podcastingforbusiness.com to help companies and executives to dial in to the specific ways they can leverage a podcast. Megan, I am so excited to welcome you to the show, and thank you for being this week's guest expert and mentor.
Megan Dougherty [00:01:42]:
Thank you, Susan. I'm so delighted to be here, and I'm so excited about the conversation we're about to have.
Susan Friedmann [00:01:47]:
Oh, and I am too because you and I had a little, you know, before the on air conversation, and you dropped a phrase in or a word or two words, and I'm like, we are going there. And those two words are pod curious. I love that. What does it
Megan Dougherty [00:02:08]:
mean? Pod curious is when someone is typically a business owner and they are aware of podcast, they probably listen to a lot of podcasts, and they're thinking to themselves, should I have one of these? And when you're in that sort of thinking about it, maybe someone's told you, hey, you should have a podcast. That's what you're in the the we call the pod curious phase, and it's when you should really do the exploration and the strategic thinking about whether or not a podcast is gonna be a good fit for you, your book, and your business.
Susan Friedmann [00:02:33]:
And I love that because it is a conversation that I have with many of my authors because they don't know should they have a podcast, should they be a guest on a podcast first. Why don't you address that because I know you work with a lot of authors, helping them with podcasts. So if an author comes to you with that dilemma, should I have my own or should I be a guest on other people's shows first? What would you say to them?
Megan Dougherty [00:03:03]:
Well, the first thing I always say is why. What would a podcast do for you and for your business? Because, you know, with the technology that we have available right now with all the education that there is available right now, anyone can start a podcast and fairly quickly, and you can experiment with, you know, reasonably low budget. But podcasting well and podcasting strategically, as as you know, Susan, is a really big investment of time and energy and sometimes money. If If someone is thinking, you know, maybe I should podcast, the first thing they should do is decide, you know, what is purpose of a podcast going to be for my book, for my marketing funnels, for my business? And if they've never done any kind of media work at all, then starting as a podcast guest is an amazing way to see if you like format, if you can sound the sound of your own voice, and if you like the way that kind of media gets into the hands and the heads of other people.
Susan Friedmann [00:03:54]:
You said something that hit home for me because I remember early on, it was really hard for me to listen to my own voice. We all agree. Now I'm I'm used to it 8 years later, but it was really, really tough. I like the fact that you say that because, yes, there is that learning curve. I worked with John Lee Dumas, and he took me through his program. I had the mentor, and it just evolved. But I know that I wanted to do it for visibility, and getting my name out there in the book marketing environment because even though I'd had my publishing company for 25 ish years by that time, I wasn't known so much in the book marketing space. I wanted that visibility.
Susan Friedmann [00:04:46]:
Yes. Let's go and talk about some of the benefits that an author could have by hosting their own show.
Megan Dougherty [00:04:56]:
And the benefits are many
Susan Friedmann [00:04:57]:
for
Megan Dougherty [00:04:57]:
for having a podcast. And the way I like to think about it and sort of figuring out what are the benefits going to be for me, you know, as an individual author, not so much in generalities, is where does my book exist kind of in my business? Or, you know, is it the launchpad for a business that I'm building? And then what path is a stranger going to take to get to me where my book lives, where the podcast lives, and how those are going to work together? What happens where what we see with a lot of authors, especially when they are kind of starting a new project, maybe a new business or a new direction in their lives by writing this book. It's a big piece of pillar content. It's wonderful. Take a stance. Get your message out into the world content. But it doesn't necessarily have kind of the intimate connection that you get when you hear someone's voice in your head or if you're doing a video podcast when you can see them. There's that extra layer of connectivity.
Megan Dougherty [00:05:47]:
And, you know, I'm sure you've put it on the parasocial relationship that develops when you get that audio experience with someone. It's closer. It's more intimate. An experience that a lot of people have that is really interesting. I've had it. Maybe you've had it, Susan, as you'll meet someone, say, at a conference or an event, and they're gonna talk to you like they've known you forever. And you're just like, I've never met this person, but they've been listening to you every Thursday night while they cook dinner for the last 3 years. And you're their friend.
Megan Dougherty [00:06:10]:
And so you can take someone on this journey, say, they buy your book and they like what you have to say. And so they're gonna Google you. They're gonna go to your website. Oh, great. So it's got a podcast. Well, I'm going to listen to that podcast and then they're going to get to know you. And that builds the knowing and liking and trusting. It kind of fills a gap for authors in between what they want to be doing for their business, whether it's speaking or coaching or selling services.
Megan Dougherty [00:06:32]:
And that initial impression somebody might have gotten them, maybe hearing them on another podcast or buying their book or seeing them at a conference. It just nurtures that person to know and like and trust you more. So I think is one of the biggest benefits that authors can get without even getting into all the details of getting to explore your topic further, getting to network with other experts and grow your audience that way. I could go on for a really long time, but I I know our time is limited today, so I'll leave it there.
Susan Friedmann [00:06:57]:
I like what you said there because interestingly enough, it's grown on me. I mean, if I listen, which it would be really hard for me to listen to those first few episodes because some of them were not good. And not necessarily from my standpoint, I just had the wrong guests. I had guests who I had to keep asking questions. It became like an interrogation that, you know, they didn't talk. Now I'm much more picky about who I have on the show, because there's certain type of personality now who I really enjoy interviewing. You're a prime example, because I can ask a question, and you're gonna give me, you know, a substantive answer rather than one word.
Megan Dougherty [00:07:44]:
Which Those interviews can be brutal. And, for anyone for any pod curious or the new podcasters, I mean, you yeah. Your first episodes are gonna suck Because it's a skill, you have to build the skill. And the only way to do it is to do it, like the only way out is through. So you've got to get those initial episodes out of the way. You have to talk to the wrong people. You have to use the wrong mic setting. You have to lose that entire recording.
Megan Dougherty [00:08:05]:
It's all gonna happen.
Susan Friedmann [00:08:07]:
Yes. And I can verify that. And you can do a whole podcast and find out that you hadn't recorded it too. I've done that a few times.
Megan Dougherty [00:08:18]:
That hurts. Very much. It's almost always gonna happen with the highest profile guest that you've ever had.
Susan Friedmann [00:08:22]:
Yeah. Yes. Yeah. They're very sympathetic to that. But, yeah, you're right. I mean, you're going to have those teething problems along the way with all different things. Yeah. I mean, I know I've had guests who, in the middle of an interview, that suddenly the dog's barking like crazy outside, and they have to say, oh, hold on a minute.
Susan Friedmann [00:08:44]:
I've gotta go and take care of the dog. Okay then.
Megan Dougherty [00:08:48]:
Yeah. Not ideal, but, you know, at least some of that you can fix in post.
Susan Friedmann [00:08:52]:
Exactly. That's why mine are recorded rather than live interviews because you just never know what's going to happen live. We've had people who've lost power, you know, I've had people in the middle of an interview, their power went. They're very embarrassed when that happens, but it could happen the other way around. I don't want that to be the case. However, that's outside of my control, whether or not the power is going to go out. But these things do happen. An author hosting their own podcast, Why would that be different from any other podcast? What makes an author having a podcast special? It's the book.
Megan Dougherty [00:09:39]:
Not everyone who has a podcast has that kind of a resource to add into their marketing funnel. One of the reasons I really love working with authors there's a lot of reason I love working with authors. But it can be special for them because they've got the book that they can either use it to direct people to the podcast. So book to podcast as part of the engagement funnel, or they can go podcast to book and get people who really like what they're saying on the podcast to buy that book. Another benefit or another thing that's special for them is that and then tell me if I'm wrong about this, but when you write a nonfiction book, I'm gonna put out there and guess that you don't include absolutely every single opinion that you have or include quotes from every single expert that you've ever talked to or fully explored every idea to the least extent possible. All of that that went into the preparation and the writing of the book that didn't maybe make it into the final cut. That's amazing podcast content. And And that's content that your readers, people who have read your book are going to absolutely love because that's the behind the scenes.
Megan Dougherty [00:10:33]:
That's the insider. That's the continuation of the story. So I absolutely love it for that reason. And I also know authors who basically run down their table of contents. They look through their book and they're like, I have 8 other things to say about this. I've got 12 other things to say about that. I've got 3 experts interview about this topic. And there's their content calendar for the entire year.
Megan Dougherty [00:10:52]:
The work is practically done already. And that is something that if you don't have that kind of foundation of a big pillar piece of content, you have to do manually bit by bit. And that work can be good and fun and valuable, but authors have already done it. So why not use that, when creating this new form of media? So those are a couple of the reasons I really like authors as podcasting clients and listening to their podcasts. It really gives me a closer feeling of the authors that I listen to who have podcasts. It's just that extra step of closeness that makes me feel really good about knowing them and getting to engage with them.
Susan Friedmann [00:11:24]:
Yeah. And you're right because your initial draft could be like War and Peace. And nobody's gonna read that. 300 pages these days is a lot for a nonfiction. I mean, I know fiction books that are a 1,000 plus pages. My son-in-law reads sci fi books that are over a 1000 pages. I was like, oh my goodness, I couldn't do that.
Megan Dougherty [00:11:48]:
For me, it's the sport's worst ones.
Susan Friedmann [00:11:52]:
But for a fiction book, yes, you don't want it to be too much and too involved because you're gonna lose people unless you're talking to scientists and high-tech people who really love the data. But for the most part, people just want something that's easy to read and yet get some good information, valuable information, because obviously that's why they bought the book in the first place. But yes, you've got lots of research that you've done, and that gets cut. I mean, it's like a movie. I mean, you're gonna take a lot of footage that just lands up on the cutting room floor. So the same happens with books. It's just the editor who is like, yeah, we can dispense with this. This is far too much.
Susan Friedmann [00:12:42]:
Yes.
Megan Dougherty [00:12:43]:
Yeah. I've talked with people who, you know, in the preparation for their books, they interviewed 25, 30, 35 experts to get quotes and to get stories to get that's a podcast for half a year if you wanna do a weekly show. If you kept those recordings and you can repurpose them, it really is about using what you have and authors have so much.
Susan Friedmann [00:13:01]:
That begs the question, do you have a solo where it's just you, or do you have an interview podcast, you know, like this style?
Megan Dougherty [00:13:15]:
That for me depends a little bit on sort of the ultimate goal of the podcast. But as soon we were chatting a little bit before we hit record about how challenging a solo episode can be to create, because it really is a difficult thing to turn on your mic, have a screen in front of you, maybe a camera in front of you, and then just talk for 20 minutes. That's a very, very long 20 minutes, and not everyone can present themselves really, really well during that amount of time. An interview can be a lot easier. There's two way dialogue. There's a dynamic flow of conversation and words going back and forth. But as I think you've noticed I know I've noticed, boy, do people like those solo episodes best of all because it is you as the author and as the the podcast host that people want more of. So when you're making the decision, you know, what format should my podcast take? I like to bring it back down to what is the goal I want to achieve with the podcast.
Megan Dougherty [00:14:07]:
Do I want to sell more books? Well, in that case, I probably should do more solo content if I'm gonna be getting people to go from stranger to podcast listener to book buyer. But if you're trying to say launch a speaking career or to me set up a new coaching practice, then having interviews can do a number of things for you. Not only is it gonna be be be a more fluid natural sound in the conversation that you're having, but you're also expanding your professional network. You're meeting all of these people who can help you achieve these other goals. You're bringing insight to your audience. So you've already got big audience, tons of people bought your book. And now you want to continue to engage them so that they want to do other kinds of business with you. So you bring in experts that can share things that you don't know personally, and you're doing that as a service to your audience while creating this amazing content.
Megan Dougherty [00:14:50]:
The question is really, what's my specific goal for this podcast within my business and within kind of the marketing ecosystem that I'm building? And what's the format that's going to help me best achieve that goal. And that can be a really individual thing. It's a personal choice and a business strategic decision that needs to be made at the beginning of every podcaster's career.
Susan Friedmann [00:15:10]:
Yes. And I knew that I wanted to do interviews. I just love interviewing. And as you said, when I do a solo, I get far more interaction where people say, oh, I love that podcast. I love what you shared. You know, it's that happy medium. I find it really challenging to sit down for 20 minutes, as you said, and rant about some topic. As my listeners know that when there is a solo episode that I have my dear friend, Jane Maluchi, who interviews me.
Susan Friedmann [00:15:48]:
I find that so much easier. Yeah. The tables are turned. She asks the questions, and then I just hopefully give some sensible answers.
Megan Dougherty [00:16:01]:
I love that strategy. It's such a good way to kind of take advantage of the best of both worlds there. I think it's great.
Susan Friedmann [00:16:07]:
Yes. I mean, my decision, as I think I mentioned earlier, I don't know if I mentioned it already on here, was that I wanted visibility in the, book marketing arena. I was not known 8, 10 years ago in this field and I thought having a podcast would be really nice. Yes. I went that route and I'm thrilled I did. And like you said, we're on 400 and, I don't know, This will be probably 420 ish episode and all the people I've met doing this. Now, I've interviewed lots of my own colleagues, speaker colleagues. I'm a member of the National Speakers Association, and so I know a lot of speakers.
Susan Friedmann [00:16:54]:
Some of them are good, and some of them are not so good as guests. However, I know that, you know, I can pick and choose. But I also am looking at a lot of experts. And when I attend summits, let's say online summits, I look at the speakers and think, oh, that's a topic that I would like to cover. Let me listen to this person. Are they engaging? And you know, I make some decisions on inviting people who have never heard of me. And up until that point, I had never heard of them. As I say, I've met some incredible people.
Susan Friedmann [00:17:30]:
This for me has been I just love it. I love it and the more I do it, the more I love it. I have relaxed so much more to doing it, which helps as well.
Megan Dougherty [00:17:42]:
And that takes some time as well. It can feel a little awkward those first couple of episodes. And then
Susan Friedmann [00:17:47]:
it was more than a couple.
Megan Dougherty [00:17:50]:
I love that strategy of using it as a networking tool at that kind of event. Sometimes we call podcasts the magic calendar opener, and someone who might never give you the time of day if you wanted to pick their brain or have a virtual coffee. If you say, would you like to be on my podcast? They say, absolutely, my assistant will be in touch. And it's a really good way to build that foundation of a different kind of relationship, whether it's, you know, referral partners, maybe even collaboration or joint venture partners. You can do tons of different things when you have podcasting as part of this nurturing and get to know you sequence.
Susan Friedmann [00:18:21]:
Yes. I absolutely agree because there have been some high profile Oh, yes. They're right at the- absolutely. Yes. That's an invitation. Oh, yes. They're right at
Megan Dougherty [00:18:36]:
the Absolutely, yes.
Susan Friedmann [00:18:37]:
Yes. That's an invitation, as you said, that gets scheduled. So it is it's a great entree. So listeners, if this is something that you want to do, I've got lots of techniques that I can share with you about how I find guests. And, you know, even I mean, I get pitched, oh, 2 or 3 times a week sometimes from agencies now. Oh, my client is going to be, you know, perfect for your show. And I read what they send me. And I'm like, you have never listened to my show.
Susan Friedmann [00:19:11]:
I don't feature just because you've written a book, I don't feature you. Many people don't have a booker who I talk with, but they've got an expertise in a subject that is helpful to my listeners. And so that's why I interview them, not because they've got a book.
Megan Dougherty [00:19:32]:
Those pitches that come out, they're they're canned. They're done in a spray and pay fashion. I get them all the time too. So I've got a podcast about podcasting for your business. That's pretty much the only thing that we talk about. And so I get pitches all the time from someone who's like, even they'll be like, oh, this is a great author. He's got this wonderful entrepreneurial journey. They can help you save all these costs in your business.
Megan Dougherty [00:19:50]:
It's like, that's not what my show is about. And especially as a newer podcaster, it can be difficult to sort through, like the wheat from the chaff and those kind of positions, because there are agencies that do a great job really researching finding great fits, and, you know, placing guests in a really in a way with lots of integrity, but it can be really hard to sort through them.
Susan Friedmann [00:20:09]:
Recently, we introduced a interview submission form. So when somebody writes to me and I think they may be of interest, then I send them the submission form. And on that form, it says, have you listened to the podcast? And if so, which is your favorite episode? It's usually the most recent one that they find. It's like, yes.
Megan Dougherty [00:20:37]:
Okay. Scroll down a little.
Susan Friedmann [00:20:40]:
So I have to laugh when they do that, and I do give them the benefit of the doubt. And of course, I love it when a guest has listened to at least one show to get a sense of my style or even the PR agency if they are familiar, at least, with the show. But as you say, they give you canned pitches, and it's a numbers game, you know. You throw enough spaghetti against the wall, some of it's going to stick. So yes. And just one of the pieces that didn't stick.
Megan Dougherty [00:21:11]:
For those listening, pitching yourself as a guest is, as I'm sure, you know, a great strategy for testing the waters, for getting eyes and ears on your book. A nice kind of way to get those pitches accepted and you noticed as not garbage. Look at the episode titles of the show that you're pitching and suggest a couple of titles in the format that they most regularly use for the thing that you wanna talk about. That demonstrates that you do know the show, at least you've researched it, and and you've got some interesting things that are going to fit in with their content. It really will dramatically increase your acceptance rate for getting accepted as a guest on other shows.
Susan Friedmann [00:21:46]:
I love that. That's a super tip. That was worth everything. How can you tell if a podcast is successful? I mean, yes, there are numbers. But are there other sort of pointers that can give you suggestions whether it is successful or not?
Megan Dougherty [00:22:08]:
This is possibly my favorite topic of all podcast related topics. And I'm so sorry I'd have to tell you the answer is it depends. Because the way you can really tell if a podcast is successful for your business is if you are regularly making progress towards meaningful goals in a way that you can measure. Let's say that I have a podcast and my goal is to increase the opportunities that I have to be a guest and to be a presenter just to speak on other stages. If that's the one of the reasons that I'm podcasting is to develop those relationships to develop that body of work that I can reference, and to demonstrate my expertise such that people are going to want me to come talk to their audiences. What I'm going to track is how often since I've started my podcast, I'm getting those opportunities. And if I see that since I've started the podcast that I promoted it and I've, you know, dropped links in the inboxes of the right people that I'm getting asked now and, you know, an average of, you know, twice as much as I was before I started my podcast. Well, then I'm gonna call that podcast a success, and I'm gonna watch how that number changes over time.
Megan Dougherty [00:23:08]:
And as long as I keep podcasting, keep optimizing the way I talk about the show, the way I kind of present the show on my website to achieve more of those opportunities. And there's all sorts of different ways you can optimize for different things. But, maybe as another example, if I'd like to meet more people who might send me referrals for my business, you know, that's the main driver of my business is getting referrals. So I'm going to use my podcast as a relationship building tool to meet the type of people who work with my type of clients, and hopefully build a good enough relationship that we can send referrals back and forth. And so I'm going to look at over time which of my guests sent referrals, how many they sent, and how many I was able to send to them. And if I'm seeing that I'm getting more referrals, now that I'm podcasting and meeting people in this way, then I'm gonna call that podcast a success because it's achieving the goal that I set for it. And it's helping my business in a way that I can track and see changing over time. So that I've got the data, I need to make decisions about it.
Megan Dougherty [00:24:01]:
There's nothing really completely external, that's going to tell you this podcast is successful. This one isn't, unless you just wanna count downloads. And downloads can be useful, but they're really not that useful to the bottom line unless you're trying to get sponsors. It comes down to what's the value of the podcast to your business and to your book and to your career. And is it adequately performing its job in supporting that business?
Susan Friedmann [00:24:24]:
You said a word that I got to pick up on very briefly. I know it's probably not a brief conversation, but give it a try. And that was the word sponsorship because that's been sort of the bane of my, I'd say my life, but my podcast life. It's like, should I have sponsorships or not for my podcast? And I've had varying different opinions on that. So what's yours?
Megan Dougherty [00:24:53]:
Almost never as a business. When you're podcasting in support of a business that already exists, and you've got a 30 year old publishing company. Right? You've done all of this work. You've built up this really robust company, and you've got now over 400 episodes of a podcast talking about you and your expertise. Why would you want to share that spotlight or send any of that attention to Casper Mattresses for $25 a month? The podcast that you've built is in service of your business. Your business is the client of your podcast effectively. And so the podcast should be supporting it and any of the glory and the fame and the shining and the great reputation, you should be keeping that for yourself. You earned it.
Megan Dougherty [00:25:32]:
I mean, there are cases when sponsorship can help defray the cost of production and there are podcasts that exist only to make money by sponsorship. But for most business owners, for most people who have taken the trouble to write a book to support their business or to get their idea out there in the world, sharing that spotlight is not necessarily the best strategic decision, especially at the rates that they're likely to be able to get for it.
Susan Friedmann [00:25:55]:
That response just warms my heart. It really does. I think I'm gonna put that one to bed that it's like, okay,
Megan Dougherty [00:26:04]:
let's let's look at this differently. Aviva Publishing. The other show you're presented by. Yeah. So it is. Then that's all the sponsorship you need. You're your own sponsor.
Susan Friedmann [00:26:15]:
Exactly. Exactly. That's the direction that I've definitely gone now because it does make sense, but I've just never seen it or heard it like that before. It was a way of, you know, you're looking at monetizing. And how do you monetize it? Do you bring other people in? But there are other ways to do it. So yes, I love that. This is the point in the show, Megan, where I say, how can our listeners find out more about you and the wonderful services that you provide.
Megan Dougherty [00:26:49]:
The very best way to find out about us is to go to podcasting for business.com. That's where we've got all of the information about everything that we do, our production, different trainings that we do, our annual conference that we run-in the fall. It is all at podcastingforbusiness.com.
Susan Friedmann [00:27:04]:
Perfect. Excellent. And I'll put that in the show notes so that people can, just click the link and head over to your site and find out more about your brilliance. Talking about that, we always end off with our guests leaving our listeners with a golden nugget. What's your golden nugget?
Megan Dougherty [00:27:25]:
I'd say my golden nugget when it comes to, you know, podcasting as an author is give it a try, but start small. So if you're feeling pod curious, and if you think you'd might like to use this as a strategy for your business, start with a short season of a podcast. You can do 6, 10, 12 episodes, make something that's complete and finished by itself. If you enjoyed it, if you had a great time, if you had a great experience with it, good reaction from your audience, keep it going. Start it again. Make it an ongoing show. And if you didn't like it, if it didn't work, then you didn't pod fade. You didn't give up.
Megan Dougherty [00:27:57]:
You didn't fail. You completed a season that stands alone. So start small.
Susan Friedmann [00:28:02]:
Beautiful. I love that verbiage. You didn't fail at it. Yes. You had 1 season. That was it. I mean, there are many shows on TV that have 1 season. Wonderful.
Susan Friedmann [00:28:14]:
Thank you, Megan. This has been a delight. I appreciate you sharing your wisdom. And by the way, listeners, if your book isn't selling the way you want it or expect it to, then let's you and I jump on a quick call together to brainstorm ways to ramp up those sales because you've invested a whole lot of time, money, and energy, and it's time you got the return that you were hoping for.
Go to bookmarketingbrainstorm.com to schedule your free call.
In the meantime, I hope this powerful interview sparks some ideas you can use to sell more books.
Until next week, here's wishing you much book and author marketing success.
Here's how to find out more about the podcast services Megan offers
