Susan Friedmann [00:00:00]:
Welcome to Book Marketing Mentors, the weekly podcast where you learn proven strategies, tools, ideas, and tips from the masters. Every week, I introduce you to a marketing master who will share their expertise to help you market and sell more books. Today, my special guest is Scott Greats. Scott is a USA Today National Bestselling Author, Podcast Host, TEDx Speaker, Entrepreneur and sought after consultant for small business owners. As the leader of multiple thriving businesses, which started from 0 and now generate 1,000,000 of dollars annually, Scott understands the challenges faced by small business owners in their relentless pursuit of success against corporate behemoths. Scott is on a mission to arm entrepreneurs with the transformative power of relationship optimization in their communities. Scott, it's an absolute pleasure to welcome you to the show, and thank you for being this week's guest expert and mentor.
Scott Grates [00:01:07]:
Thank you, Susan. Just hearing you say all those nice things about me is worth it already.
Susan Friedmann [00:01:12]:
Yeah. Well, good. Well, you're all about building relationships. And what better way than on a podcast? I know we just spent a few minutes talking before we went on the air and already we're building this relationship after not knowing each other before then. So it's like, okay, let's get started on this whole idea of building relationships and why it's so important, especially to our listeners, our nonfiction author listeners.
Scott Grates [00:01:43]:
Yeah. No doubt. You know, in this digitally dominated world that's built around AI and algorithms, I truly believe those that take the contrarian approach. And I'm not saying you don't get involved in AI and algorithms. Don't misunderstand. But if you can take that contrarian approach to just old school, eyeball to eyeball, human touch, meaningful relationships, ultimately, that's where business gets done. And that's why small business owners and solopreneurs are really the ones that drive the American economy. Digital presence, super important, right, especially with brand building, which I know we'll get into and just how people perceive you and online testimonials and Google reviews.
Scott Grates [00:02:26]:
Those are so important. But, ultimately, when I go to you, Susan, as a friend, as a peer, as a colleague, as a human, and ask for a favor or offer value to you and you want to reciprocate, you just can't replace that. And so, yeah, relationships to me are the center of of everything.
Susan Friedmann [00:02:47]:
As you're saying that, the phrase that came to mind was literally, it's not what you know, it's who you know.
Scott Grates [00:02:54]:
Mhmm. Yeah.
Susan Friedmann [00:02:54]:
And then building on that who you know. And we all have people we know. I remember teaching a course on relationship building and some statistic, and I don't know if it's still relevant, but we all know at least about 250 people, and some people just have that number in their families. So between all the different parts of our lives, we know people. One of the things that comes up, Scott, constantly when I talk to authors is people feel, let's say, difficult, uneasy about the idea of promoting themselves. They feel that if they're networking or building relationships, that they're going to have to talk about the book and they feel uneasy about that. Talk to us a little bit about how can we make that sort of process easier when we're maybe wanting to talk about the book but yet reluctant because we feel we don't like the idea of self promotion?
Scott Grates [00:04:03]:
Yeah. Very common. Great question. Something a lot of people deal with. So here's just the blunt simple answer. It's not about you, period. You didn't write the book for you. You wrote the book to serve others, to help others.
Scott Grates [00:04:19]:
What I would say is get super clear about your customer avatar, your reader avatar. Who is that person? Why did you put pen to paper? Why did you take the hours and hours required to do this to help somebody? And it's been said that we're best suited to serve the person we once were. And so maybe it's a different version of you. And because you had this specific knowledge or system or, you know, whatever you're teaching, you improved, and now you wanna do the same for your audience. And so, you know, number 1 is it's not about you. Right? It's about the person you serve. And then I would challenge the audience to get really clear, and this is difficult. It takes time, but really get clear on the one word problem that you solve because people aren't going to buy the book.
Scott Grates [00:05:14]:
They're going to buy the benefits of what the book content can do for them. What is that in one word? For me, when I was working on referrals done right, there's almost nothing in the book that readers are like, oh my gosh. This is earth shattering, brand new. Like, we need to establish strategic and intentional relationships and add value, and then people will, you know, wanna do business. Like, that's not new. But the one word problem I solve is inconsistency. So many people that I work with, they know all this stuff. They know why it's important.
Scott Grates [00:05:49]:
They even know how to do it, but they don't do it with consistency. You know, if I can say, Susan, I once struggled with inconsistency when it comes to strategic and intentional relationships that turn these relationships into revenue that help my business, I implemented this system, right, and it changed my life, and here's all the benefits and the things that I could do for you. I wanna share this with you. So am I self promoting there? Am I promoting the book? Perhaps. But it feels like I am doing this because I want you to benefit from the same things I benefited from. So once you get clear that it's not about you and you get clear on the person you want to serve and the reasons you wanna do it, then you should be screaming from the mountaintops to all the people that you can help because that's why you started this journey.
Susan Friedmann [00:06:38]:
And you've got an infinite referral advantage framework. I'm thinking that what you just talked about is part of that framework. Am I correct there, or did I jump to a whole different subject?
Scott Grates [00:06:53]:
Nice. That is. Right? So for the example, to extend it from my book, the referrals done right book, which is really just a book about relationships. But if you title it relationships done right, it goes into a different section of the bookstore, and it's a whole different context. So it's you know, referrals gives it more of a business feel, which it is. But, yeah, that infinite referral advantage is the idea that you can go out and try to find a 1000 customers in the cold, traditional, very expensive white noise space that everyone else is trying to do it in, or you can build deep, rich, meaningful relationships with people in key markets that are people that are already doing business with the people you wanna do business with. And by nurturing those relationships, they will in turn, through the law of reciprocity, want to introduce you to people they know and, you know, over time, and it takes time. This is the consistency part.
Scott Grates [00:07:48]:
They will start to know you, like you, trust you, and introduce you to their inner circle. And now the 1,000 people you wanted years ago, you got organically, but you did it by leveraging 50 or a 100 key relationships.
Susan Friedmann [00:08:03]:
I think one of the things that you just said is something that many people find challenging, and that is the idea that it takes time. But I want it to happen now. You know, I tried this marketing strategy and it didn't work. A number of times I've heard that, and I was like, you know, it might not work today, but it might work tomorrow. You might have to try it a few more times. You might have to go about it a little differently. But that whole idea of something taking time, that building relationship takes time. Talk to us more about that and having the patience for that.
Scott Grates [00:08:42]:
You're spot on. And I would take the might out of it. It's going to. And just going in with crystal clear understanding and expectations that anything worth having is worth working for. There's no express elevator to the top floor. You have to take the stairs. It is the reason that not all people are super successful. Right? Because if I had to name just one quality in people, it's that patience.
Scott Grates [00:09:05]:
And we see this with good health. We see this with, financial investing. It just takes time. There is no quick fix to it. Well, even when we look at the book journey, for me, I started with a quick, like, 112 page self published lead magnet, which was probably the worst thing I've ever written, and I feel guilty that it's out there. I probably need to rewrite it, but it it did what it needed to do. It provided enough value to have people go, oh, I like this. I like the tone, the message.
Scott Grates [00:09:36]:
I want more, and they went to the website and they bought into, you know, whatever membership level they were comfortable with, but I learned a lot from that book process and then it led me to my next book, which I made plenty of mistakes there, which led me to the next one, which finally had a national bestseller list and, you know, presumably will lead me to what's next. And by the time this thing gets to where I envisioned it many years ago when I started, it'll probably be 12, 15 years, and then people will look at it and go, oh, what'd you do? Right? As if it was one thing. Success is never linear. There's no quick answer, and people don't want the truth because it's not sexy and it's not easy, but you have to have grit and you have to have faith. And the grit is just your ability to, day in and day out, put in the work even though it it can be ugly and you don't wanna do it sometimes, but you just you have to keep doing it. And then faith is just the understanding that even though I'm not seeing results, they're happening. It it's going to pay off. And I think that's true with any business, and especially if your audience is solopreneurs and small business owners, hopefully, that's ringing true and giving some people some hope that, hey, you just gotta keep going.
Scott Grates [00:10:49]:
Right? Don't quit.
Susan Friedmann [00:10:51]:
Yeah. That consistency is so key. I had a mentor once who said, it takes 15 years to become an overnight success. Yeah. And you almost hit it, you know, there with your your 12 to 15 years. Yeah. You know, your 3rd book is the one that made it. Many people think, oh, I'm just gonna write one book.
Susan Friedmann [00:11:14]:
It took me so long, and it was such a tiresome, tedious exercise. I'm never going to write another one again. But yet a few years later, they're like, you know what? I think I'd like to write another book.
Scott Grates [00:11:28]:
Yeah. It's a haunting experience. It truly is because if I give a talk, there might be 1 or 2 points that I make during a 45 minute, 60 minute keynote that resonates with you that you'll remember. Hopefully, that's great success. You won't remember the rest. And if you and I meet, even this conversation were happening today, 6 months from now, maybe you'll remember 1 or 2 points, 1 or 2 takeaways. With a book, it's forever. It's in print.
Scott Grates [00:11:54]:
It's there. Right? And so there's so many things that haunt you as I wish I'd said this different, or I wish I did this, or I forgot to add that. And so it does become addicting in a way where it's like, okay. How can I create a framework for the next thing that's even more impactful? It's a chase.
Susan Friedmann [00:12:11]:
It really is. Now, I know that you talk about 5 key referral groups. Let's talk about those and how those might be able to help our listeners.
Scott Grates [00:12:24]:
Yeah. I think from the listener standpoint, you know, where it helped me with the book launch is I developed key relationships and specific groups that could lead me to bulk sales. Instead of trying to sell one book at a time, I said, how can I leverage this group of fellow small business owners to purchase multiple books and give them the benefits as to why and how it will serve them, their employees, the people they wanna build relationships with? I looked at our local schools. So small business owners is 1, local schools was another, And how can I use this book to get it into the hands of many? Right? Whether it be students or parents or everyone's gonna have a different topic, and that may or may not fit with the schools. And the third one is service organizations, civic organizations, local charities. Those people are super connectors. We talk about relationships. Think of any local nonprofit civic organization, the board members of different groups like that, people who donate their time and money.
Scott Grates [00:13:28]:
They're typically pretty well off, pretty connected people, and so that helped me. My customers. Right? No one knows you, likes you, and trusts you more than the people you're already doing business with, your customers. An extension of your sales team. Think of it like if you're a musician. I'm a big fan of Dave Matthews. I've been chasing Dave around for 30 years since college. If Dave Matthews releases a new album, I'm going to buy it.
Scott Grates [00:13:53]:
I haven't heard a single song on it, but I like Dave. Right? And so your customers like you. Well, if you're releasing a new book, even though they haven't, you know, read a word of it, because they like you, they're more likely to buy and share it with their friends who wanna be part of your launch team and things like that. And then the 5th piece is social media. I jokingly call it the land of make believe. We get everyone's highlight reel, the best couple minutes of their day, but it is a great tool and a great way to leverage relationships and, help you with your personal branding strategy. So those are my 5 s's, if you will. Those 5 different groups I've built key relationships in so that when I do have a new project venture service that I'm offering, I can go to them with confidence knowing that they will introduce it to their audience as well.
Susan Friedmann [00:14:42]:
You mentioned something that is hot, and that is bulk book sales. And that's something that I've been spending a lot of time talking to my audience about because I sold half a 1000000 copies of my first book to one company.
Scott Grates [00:15:01]:
Oh, that's amazing.
Susan Friedmann [00:15:02]:
And yeah. That wasn't my goal. But it happened. Because what I had to offer, and this goes back to what you said early on, is what I had to offer was something that this company wanted and needed. And they actually used my book as a lead magnet. Before, there were lead magnets, so we called them lead magnets. Talk to us about your approach to bulk book sales. How do you go about it?
Scott Grates [00:15:32]:
Yeah. So this is a great moment in time for me to share with the audience that anything that is important to the project, the mission that is not in your lane, that you are not the best person for, outsource that or delegate it. And so this was a piece that I tapped a couple people in my network in on, some fellow branding and marketing specialists and people who have done bulk sales like yourself in the past. And I am terrible when it comes to technology, and so I hired a a web developer designer, someone who focuses on web design and sales funnels. And so we really created this team of people who could put forth a strategy, and ours was, you know, 5, 25, 50, and a 100. And I'm not saying that's what everyone's has to be, but that's just how we went about this thing. And we had different offers for for each level. So if you bought 5 books, you got this.
Scott Grates [00:16:29]:
If you bought 25, you got this. Right up to if you bought a 100, there were we did a corporate retreat that was a limited offer. And we priced everything so that it was like a breakeven. Right? I wasn't losing money on this. I wasn't really making money either, but really then putting the driving force behind. All of our marketing was around this one word problem that we solve, the benefits that it will bring to the person who's buying it, but then even beyond that, the benefits to buying 25, 50, or a 100 copies, what they can do with them, and how that would help them the same way that company bought half a million, which is astounding. I wanna buy that book now. And really just honed all the marketing to get people into that funnel that will bring them the options that those menu options of the 4 different bulk offers that we have.
Susan Friedmann [00:17:19]:
That's a great strategy, is that you're offering something else. The books are almost like the added benefit, or maybe it's your corporate presentation that was the added benefit. I know that I did a lot of training as a result of selling the books to this company. They want we did training for their distributors. We did training for the head office. So there are other things. So talk to us more about what could our authors put into a proposal for bulk book sales? Obviously, you've got a presentation of some kind. Maybe you've got some coaching.
Susan Friedmann [00:17:58]:
What else could they be offering?
Scott Grates [00:18:01]:
Yeah. So, you know, we talk a lot about books in lieu of fee. So, you know, whatever your speaking fee is, you waive that if they'll buy x number of books. Like, in a couple weeks, I'm flying to Detroit, and we're recording this in January. So Detroit in January sounds lovely, I know. But I'm flying to Detroit, and it's a group of about 500 people. And they're paying for my travel, but in lieu of the fee, I asked them to buy 500 hard copy of the book to give everyone in the audience, and that was the contract. Right? So I'm not taking any money per se.
Scott Grates [00:18:34]:
So, obviously, speaking is easy one. If you do have coaching or if you have a membership program, we have a CRM system that helps with relationship management, and we are offering x number of months or even up to a year for free on that system for x number of of book sales. We did the corporate retreat, which was an absolute blast and I've been able to personally meet. We had a group of 12 not too far from you, actually. We're up in the Adirondack Mountains, and we spent a weekend together. And and it was kind of some work and some fun and some camaraderie, but they all spent $5,000 ahead to be there, and that came with x number of books. Just different ways that you can incentivize them to take that value that you're offering and double it, triple it, 5 x it, 10 x it. What can you put in that package? And then like you said brilliantly, the book kinda comes along for the ride, But all of that, you know, led to and I'm embarrassed to say this number.
Scott Grates [00:19:31]:
I was proud of it until I heard half a 1000000 from you, but all of that work led us to just over 5,000 book sales presale before launch and, was able to land us on a bestseller list.
Susan Friedmann [00:19:43]:
That's fantastic. I love those ideas, all those different elements that you could offer. I know one of my speaker colleagues, Phil Jones, Philem Jones, he talks about giving 50 books a part of his speaking contract. Maybe there are several 100 people in the audience, and then the meeting plan is like, what do I do with these 50 books? Well, maybe you'd like everybody else in the audience to have a copy that could be added in afterwards. But as part of the speaking fee, there's a certain number of books that come with that speaking fee.
Scott Grates [00:20:23]:
For sure. And keep in mind, and and you guys know this, but just to remind everyone that the more books in circulation, the greater chance of people liking it, sharing it, you know, being on social with it, buying copies for friends or colleagues. And then you're always just looking for that one magical connection. Right? That one connection that's gonna lead to your story, Susan, where this company goes, hey. I wanna buy a 100,000 or, hey. I wanna give you this, you know, opportunity to be a corporate trainer for this amount of money, and that might be your dream. And it came from that one book and that so the more you can get out into circulation, the better. I think it goes without saying, but no one writes a book to get rich from the book.
Scott Grates [00:21:04]:
The goal is to get as many out there as possible. So to me, I price everything as a breakeven. I'm not saying that's the right way to do it. You know, I don't wanna lose money on the venture, but I'm not looking to make money on a book. I'm looking to make money on whatever comes after that. And so I price everything to breakeven on the book.
Susan Friedmann [00:21:20]:
Yeah. And that's something when authors come to me, that's the first thing. It's like, you're not going to get rich on the book. However, if you do speaking engagements and, you know, you've opportunity to sell, and everybody in the audience has a copy of the book. I mean, these are ways in which you can make money. It's not just from selling the books. Because as we know, if it's traditionally published, if you're lucky, you get a dollar a book or something.
Scott Grates [00:21:46]:
Yeah, a dollar. Yeah,
Susan Friedmann [00:21:47]:
a dollar. A few dollars. You know, if it's yours, you know, then you make whatever profit taking away the cost of developing the book, creating the book. Yes. It's not enough. You've gotta sell many millions to start getting rich on these books.
Scott Grates [00:22:02]:
But, you know, but to give people hope. Right? And so we were talking before we hit record. The first book that I released, I'm a just jump and figure it out on the way down kinda guy. And, insurance agencies was my primary driver for income back when this started. And so I was talking to a friend who's an insurance agent, and he said, I self published this book that I give. He didn't even sell it. He gives it to all of the realtors around him, and it's for people that they're selling homes to. And it's basically a book for home buyers, all the things that you may or may not have thought of.
Scott Grates [00:22:34]:
And, ultimately, there's a whole chapter early on about properly insuring the home and this and that, and it became, like, a really cool business card educational piece. And so he said, how do I get to all the people buying homes in, like, an hour radius of me? Well, he gave his book as many as they wanted to all these realtors who gave them to their customers, made them look like a hero, and then, you know, ultimately, it came back to him for the insurance, you know, often. And so I'm like, that's a great idea. And so I'm like, I'm gonna do this. I used the same publisher. I had it out within just 3 or 4 months, and like I said, I wasn't the best, but it was enough value to say, hey. If you're interested in this, I can teach you this, this, and that. Go to my website.
Scott Grates [00:23:13]:
And within 2 years, we had sold over a $1,000,000 in online memberships and subscriptions that was directly from this little 112 page book and with no experience. But if you have a certain knowledge and it's something you can provide value and you build the what's next first, you don't need to make money on the book per se.
Susan Friedmann [00:23:37]:
Yeah. But there has to be another plan, whether it's
Scott Grates [00:23:40]:
Oh, for sure. Teaching.
Susan Friedmann [00:23:42]:
Yeah. For sure. Speaking, training, coaching, consulting, these are services that pay. That's where you make the money. And the book gives you the credibility that you're an expert in this area. It's your big fat business card, as one of my book coaches always calls it.
Scott Grates [00:24:02]:
It's a very expensive business card.
Susan Friedmann [00:24:04]:
Yes. It is.
Scott Grates [00:24:07]:
But it does. You're right. The authority I like thought leadership, you know, podcasts like this, you know, the TEDx stage, all these things started opening up to me once I became an author. How do you quantify that? What's the ROI? I don't know, but I know it's good, and I don't know how much of it would have come to life if it wasn't for jumping into this book space. So for those that are listening and thinking about it, just do it. Right? And know that you're gonna make mistakes, and that's okay, and learn from them and and figure out, you know, what's next.
Susan Friedmann [00:24:40]:
You're going to make mistakes, guaranteed. And that's okay because you pick yourself up and you try something different, and your marketing is a very inexact science. You know? One day it will work, and the next day it won't. So you have to always be looking at how can you shift? How can you just keep going? It goes back to the consistency that you started talking about, that just being consistent. I remember starting this podcast, and I don't even want to listen to some of those first episodes because they were dreadful. And it was like, oh my goodness. But I kept going, and, you know, we're now on 450 something episodes. And, yeah, 8 years of doing this, and I love it.
Susan Friedmann [00:25:27]:
It's so much fun.
Scott Grates [00:25:28]:
Yeah. Congratulations. And by the way, this has led you I'll put you on the spot and not with a number, but, you know, how many relationships have started in your world because of this podcast?
Susan Friedmann [00:25:40]:
Exactly. Yeah. I've had the opportunity to meet some incredible people like yourself. Every guest is so special because they add something. Now you've got some little magic that you can add, and these conversations just are so much fun.
Scott Grates [00:26:00]:
Yeah. That's another huge piece of the relationship. You think, on the surface, the we're doing it for the listener, but the reality of why you wanna consider podcasting as well as authorship you know, if you could do them in conjunction, that also helps with sales, by the way. That was part of my launch strategy. You're building this audience, but you're also building connections with people you otherwise may not have been able to meet, and that will serve you well down the road too.
Susan Friedmann [00:26:25]:
Yeah. You just never know. Yeah. It's all about relationship building. It always has been and it always will be because you can't do it on your own. You need others to help you, which is a wonderful segue, Scott, into you telling our listeners how they can find out more about you, your book. Take it Yeah.
Scott Grates [00:26:46]:
Real simple. Just my website. You know, I have a bunch of different ventures and things that I'm involved in, but my website, which is my name, is Scott Grates, scottgrates.com. That will link you to podcasts that I do, the books that I've written. If you, you know, are interested in in corporate trainings or speaking engagements, that would be the best way to connect with me.
Susan Friedmann [00:27:09]:
Perfect. And I'll put that link into the show notes so that if people haven't got anything to write with at the moment, they can see it in the show notes. And as you know, we talked about this before we went on the air. We always leave our listeners with a golden nugget. What's yours?
Scott Grates [00:27:29]:
It goes back to really to put a bow on everything we've talked about in two words, just don't quit. The 2 hardest things in the world for people to do, you know, especially when it comes to something big like this, whether it's writing a book or or starting a podcast or that relationship that you're trying to find, the 2 hardest things to do are to start and then to finish. And so once you get up the courage to start the thing, that's when you're gonna wanna quit. And I know I've heard guests in the past as I've listened to your show talk about imposter syndrome. It's real. We all deal with it. So there's always that voice in your head. It's not just your head.
Scott Grates [00:28:08]:
It's every head. It's standard equipment saying you're not worthy. You're not ready. You're not confident enough. Don't do this. And it's the easiest thing in the world. I have 3 children, and I tell them all the time. The easiest thing in the world to do is to quit.
Scott Grates [00:28:21]:
The easiest thing in the world is to do nothing. But if you always take easy, you never do anything. And so you've gotta push through, understand your why, which is that audience that you're writing for is not about you. It's all about them. They need to hear your story. They need to hear your message. It's unique to you. It served you well to the point that you started this, So see it through.
Scott Grates [00:28:42]:
K? Don't quit and see whatever your book is about to the finish line.
Susan Friedmann [00:28:47]:
Beautiful. And that goes back to that one word that's just so important and knowing that one word. Yeah. Oh, there's so much wisdom here. Thank you, Scott. And listeners, this is one of those episodes again that you're gonna have to listen to again because Scott's wisdom was, what can I say, worth 1,000,000? Take advantage of it. There's there's definitely money where his words are. So again, you know that what this is all about.
Susan Friedmann [00:29:20]:
And if your book isn't selling the way you wanted or expected to, lets you and I jump on a quick call together to brainstorm ways to ramp up those sales because you've invested a whole lot of time, money, and energy, and it's time you got the return that you were hoping for. So go to Book Marketing Mentors to schedule your free call. And in the meantime, I hope this powerful interview sparks some ideas you can use to sell more books. Until next week, here's wishing you much book and author marketing success.
