Susan Friedmann [00:00:00]:
Welcome to Book Marketing Mentors, the weekly podcast where you learn proven strategies, tools, ideas, and tips from the masters. Every week, I introduce you to a marketing master who will share their expertise to help you market and sell more books. Today, my special guest is Joelle Han, also known as the Brooklyn Book Doctor. Joelle is a writer and book coach specializing in nonfiction projects for individuals and major US publishers. Subjects range from well-being, personal development, and spirituality to finance, culture, trends, and more. As a co thinker and coach, she helps authors refine their ideas, embrace the creative process, and write and pitch their books. Major publishers she works with include Harper One, Wiley, Shambhala Publications, and many more. Joelle, it's an absolute pleasure to welcome you to the show, and thank you for being this week's guest expert and mentor.
Joelle Hann [00:01:03]:
Thank you so much for having me. I'm really looking forward to our conversation.
Susan Friedmann [00:01:07]:
Well, I am too because we're gonna discuss traditional publishers. And this is a subject that many authors want to know more about because they don't understand that process of the publishing industry. And as we know, it's getting tougher and tougher to get a contract with a major publisher. Let's focus on that and focus on, if somebody was to work with you, where in the process would they come? Should they have a finished manuscript? Should it not be written? Where are they?
Joelle Hann [00:01:42]:
Yeah. It's a great question. Often, we have this idea that if we're going to write a book, we should write a book, and that's where we should start. But for nonfiction, which can be a lot of different things that are fact based, so a research book or a self help book or personal development or even memoir, you wanna start a little bit with the writing and pretty quickly, you wanna do a proposal. Then the reason to do this is that the market for nonfiction books, they wanna see concept and they wanna see proof of concept, which sounds a little jargony, before they offer you a book deal. So they wanna see what your project is in a nutshell. Proposal is actually a bit bigger than a nutshell. And they wanna know who you are in the world already so that they can really envision the book.
Joelle Hann [00:02:33]:
People come to me most often when they have a book idea that they're very excited about, when they have a business that's working really well, or they're at a certain place in their career where it's time to have a book. That could be for many different reasons. Or if they're writing a memoir where their story is really ripening and they're ready to share it with the world, and they really feel like they have a unique message or story to share. Most often, people come to me at that moment of excitement when they're ready to make that leap. And once in a while, people come to me when they have a manuscript that's almost fully written or is fully written. Believe it or not, that latter stage is not the easier way to do it. Sometimes people have to do it that way for their own process, but it's not easier to start with a manuscript and then go back and write the proposal. I will explain more about that in a moment.
Joelle Hann [00:03:22]:
But
Susan Friedmann [00:03:22]:
I'm intrigued, and I know our listeners will be too because I'm interested in hearing more about that whole proposal process because it is a process. And as you say, it's a body of work, that, proposal. It's several pages long. Talk to us about that.
Joelle Hann [00:03:43]:
Yes. So a proposal, it can seem like, oh, I just put together a few pages as I describe myself. I describe the project, talk generally about who's gonna buy it, and then pages, and then that's it. That might have worked twenty years ago, twenty five years ago, but not today. Today, we really wanna see not just a little general idea of what the book is, but we really wanna feel like we know what this book is. We know what you are. We can feel your publishing chops even if you haven't had a book out before, which just means knowing a bit something about the industry before you enter into the book world. A proposal is a couple of things.
Joelle Hann [00:04:23]:
It showcases your writing, especially if you're writing a memoir. It showcases your perspective, which is super important no matter what you're writing. We wanna know that we have something fresh, something timely. That doesn't mean new, new, new. We've never heard it before. It just means right for this moment. And it showcases who is gonna buy your book because publishing is for profit industry. They wanna know they're gonna make their money back, Not that they're only going to support a new author or second time author or whatever.
Joelle Hann [00:04:53]:
So Proposals doing a lot of really important work upfront. They're making a publisher, which probably is conservative in their approach. They want something that's gonna work. They're reassuring them that this project is gonna work. And really importantly, they're telling you as the author that your book is going to work, not just that your vision is going to become a book, which, of course, we want, but also that you know how to reach your audience, that you know what you're saying to the audience, and you know who you are as an author. So putting a proposal together is essential for traditional publishing, but I think it's also a really great thing to do for any of the paths you're taking in publishing, self publishing, hybrid publishing, anything like that because it clarifies so much for the author as well.
Susan Friedmann [00:05:41]:
Yes. Because I'm a hybrid publisher, as you know. And when people come to me, and the first thing I ask is, what do you want the book to do for you, and who is your audience? It's surprising, the answers I get. They hadn't thought that through. They'd written the book, but some of these major details were Yeah. Left out.
Joelle Hann [00:06:03]:
Yes. Because I think if you grew up reading and you love books, you have an idea of what a book is that doesn't necessarily in your mind have anything to do with marketing. But if you're a publisher like you are, Susan, everything is about marketing and meaning just how do we get this book into the world? How do we get it into the hands of the people who really need it? How do we spread this message? How are we gonna reach them? That's what marketing in this case means. We want people to buy the book. That's why we wrote it. But when you're the writer and you're very close to your vision, you're not necessarily gonna ask yourself those questions unless you're coming from a sales or marketing background, and then that's very natural for you to ask. As a writer or a creative person, you might not think to ask those questions. But for you and for all publishers, those are essential to answer.
Susan Friedmann [00:06:53]:
Yes. Because as you said, marketing is really the engine that they've got to drive. They think once the book's written that the work is over, and I tell them no. It's just beginning. That's just first station along the route.
Joelle Hann [00:07:08]:
That's right.
Susan Friedmann [00:07:09]:
You mentioned first time authors. That's more challenging for a publisher to take on a first time author because they don't have the history. They've never sold a book before. They've got nothing to show necessarily. So at what point might they consider taking a chance on you?
Joelle Hann [00:07:29]:
A publisher, obviously, they wanna invest in new writers because they're looking for the next fresh thing. They're looking for the next fresh idea, perspective, voice, material. That's why agents are looking on social media and reading lots of different kinds of things to look for who's making that fresh new material. So publishers wanna invest in that. And at the same time, they wanna make their money back and they wanna make some more so they can keep working. That is why they're motivated to sign new authors. And then typically publishers are risk averse. They don't have the bandwidth if they're very small to take a risk.
Joelle Hann [00:08:08]:
And some of them are just more interested in their bottom line than others, like the big five have become very interested in their bottom line. So they really wanna sell a lot of copies. They're gonna sign people who they think are going to absolutely sell a lot of copies, and they're gonna hedge their bets. They're gonna look for people who have an audience already. They're already talking to people on some kind of channel in some kind of way. Doesn't always mean social media, can mean they have a speaking gig or maybe they're on TV or there's some kind of personality that we've heard of or an audience has heard of. The bigger the publisher, they're gonna go for the people who have the more visibility already because that's a way for them to hedge their bets. At the same time, if you're a really fresh voice and you've got a new unique perspective, then that could be interesting for them too.
Joelle Hann [00:08:59]:
The bigger the publisher, the more risk averse. But everyone is trying to make their bottom line, so that's always gonna be the case there. For the smaller presses, they're gonna make a lot of their money on their backlist, meaning authors that have always sold well, that continue to sell well, they have evergreen bestsellers, that kind of thing. And they might be more open to taking a risk on a newer person, and also their advances are gonna be lower because they don't have as much of bandwidth. So it's always a trade off.
Susan Friedmann [00:09:26]:
Let's talk about the marketing side of the proposal, the marketing platform. Because based on what you said, the author has to show that they have a platform. Talk us through what that might look like.
Joelle Hann [00:09:43]:
This can be a place where people really find their confidence or really get spooked in the proposal process. Publishers wanna see that you are already connected to people. That said, people come to my program, Book Proposal Academy, with sometimes often quite small platforms, then we dig into that and see what's actually there and see what could be improved. The people who get excited about this section are sometimes people who didn't realize they had a platform, but once they start putting it together and I show them how to do that, how it's not just a surface, like, one time thing, but it's something that you're always thinking about and adding to. You're thinking about who am I connected to? Who are those people connected to? And so on. You can really build a portrait of who's out there, who's really excited and ready to support you. And sometimes you'll discover that they have a much bigger platform than they thought they did. And for other people who think, well, I just don't have it, they start a new way of finding people.
Joelle Hann [00:10:41]:
I had one person in Book Proposal Academy. When she entered, she was not on Instagram, And she started her Instagram during the program. And very quickly, because of her topic, had thousands of followers and quickly had many, many thousands of followers. Within a year, she got a book deal because not only was it about her social media, but she was also doing podcasts on her topic, which was parenting disabled children, doing articles. She was out there in a way where she was reaching lots of people. But that confidence boost she got from starting her Instagram and it going well helped her to reach out to more outlets and outlets to reach to her. So she did increase her public presence by just putting in some effort in that direction, Where at first, she thought, oh, gosh. I don't have a platform really that publishers are gonna like.
Joelle Hann [00:11:33]:
She ended up having one just by putting in a little bit of time and effort and building it on her own. The platform section is really important. It shows publishers that you're reaching people. It can be something that is mystifying to authors, but with some work, we find that we can figure it out.
Susan Friedmann [00:11:52]:
What are the trends now in publishing? What are publishers looking for? Yes. New ideas. But are there certain topic areas, certain genres that they are more interested in than others?
Joelle Hann [00:12:06]:
I specialize in nonfiction books, and we can definitely point to during the pandemic, there was a big rise in self help and self improvement. And now I know that the trend is more towards fiction and fantasy and romance and escape essentially. But in these times where things are very uncertain, people are always gonna turn to some kind of personal development, some kind of self help, like, let me figure this out. Let me understand where I'm at. Let me improve my life. Those are historically really strong categories to publish in, and those remain strong. Yes. I would say the for memoir writers platform is a bit trickier because it could really go either way.
Joelle Hann [00:12:44]:
If you have a lot of people you're already talking to, like, maybe you have a substack or you've won some literary prizes or you've published quite a bit, you can still be interesting to a publisher even if you don't have a huge audience, especially if you have a unique voice or unique angle. It helps a lot if someone has gotten behind you. Like one of my book proposal academy graduates, she had a piece placed in Roxane Gay's magazine. And that really was what I was saying earlier about proof of concept. The fact that someone as prominent as Roxane Gay would get behind her definitely gave her a boost and made it okay for publishers to think about publishing her. And she did get a publishing deal, and her book is coming out right now. That really worked for her as a memoir writer. Anything that's visible where we can see you, you're in a high profile place, that's gonna be great for your platform too.
Joelle Hann [00:13:35]:
I think in some cases, it just comes down to the editor wanting to take a risk on you, and that can be determined by a lot of really subjective things. What's happening in the world? What's that editor's preference? What's that publisher done recently or not done recently? And that can really weigh in on whether they wanna take a risk on you or not.
Susan Friedmann [00:13:56]:
What about if somebody comes to you with a manuscript and you know that this isn't something that's going to get picked up? What happens then?
Joelle Hann [00:14:05]:
A couple of things. I really am a big believer in a writer's dream. If they're really passionate about their book and they really think it's gonna be a book and they really know that they have to have this book, even if I have serious doubts, I won't hold back from expressing those because I do think that that can be very helpful when said with truth and kindness. I don't wanna hold them back because I've seen people do things that I wouldn't have expected them to be able to do. I learned that very early on. I never wanna crush someone's dream. I do wanna give them some parameters to work with them because I know something about how the industry works, and maybe I know a little bit more than they do. So I wanna set them up for success.
Joelle Hann [00:14:45]:
Sometimes, this happens often with memoir writers, What they really wanna do, and it might be something they don't realize, is they really want to tell their story that there's healing and catharsis in putting down on paper what happened to them, what they went through, and what happened in the end. And that can be a super important part of their journey and not necessarily something that's ready for publication. And those two things can be very threaded together, very close together and hard to untangle for quite a while before they realize the book that they've written is not the one that needs to be published. In that case, I would try to steer them as gently as I could to completing that manuscript, but thinking about what story they want to publish, what story wants to go out into the world. If they're not a memoir writer and they've already written the manuscript and they come to me and I think in the state that it's in now, it cannot be published, I would try to give them some options. First of all, I would say, here's why I don't think a publisher is gonna take this, and I would give them my reasons. And then I would say, but you could think about it this way. Here's option one.
Joelle Hann [00:15:56]:
Here's option two. Here's option three, or however many options there were. I think if you made these changes, it would be a lot more appealing, and here's why. It takes a lot of courage to hear that, to be open to an opinion that doesn't resonate with the vision you have for the book, and to trust that it is actually helping you go in the direction you wanna go in. It's really hard. We have a vision for our book. We have a mission. We have something we wanna say.
Joelle Hann [00:16:22]:
We're very passionate about what we wanna say. And oftentimes, we wanna be of service to readers, so we wanna do it our way. And it can be hard to listen to somebody on the outside say, well, actually, I think it would work better like this. Once people are ready to listen because they found someone that they trust, and that could be me or anybody else, they feel like this is the resonance here, then they're really on their author journey. Because being an author is not just about, I have something to say, I'll say it. It's about, I have something to say, and I really need to understand where my audience is at and how they need to hear it. And that's a very important distinction between being a writer and being an author, really being able to know where your audience is and speak to them.
Susan Friedmann [00:17:08]:
What's going through my mind as you're saying all this is that sometimes I think authors, when they come to me and they say they would really like to be published by a traditional publisher, and I think they think it's because it's not going to cost them anything. They don't have the investment, financial investment, in the same way as they would if they worked with me or any other hybrid publisher. They pay to play. I know that that's not true, but help me with that.
Joelle Hann [00:17:40]:
Mhmm. Yes. I think no matter which path you're going down, it can be very surprising how much it costs to publish a book. If you're going hybrid or self publishing and you're putting it all together yourself, in your case, with a hybrid publisher with some help, you may think, okay. Well, there's gonna be some associated cost with that. Even that can be much more than you think it is. Traditional publishing, you think, well, someone's gonna do it for me, and they're gonna pay me for it. Great.
Joelle Hann [00:18:06]:
They'll take their cut that they need. I'll get some. That really helps me. And then you find out, oh, I have all this research, and I have to pay for the art, for example. If I have to get rights for the art or I have to pay for rights for these quotations, or I have to pay for this additional marketing that I wanna do. And those are things we're not expecting to do, and suddenly you're hiring a publicist. And a good publicist is $10.15, $20,000 for their campaign. And you're thinking, gosh.
Joelle Hann [00:18:38]:
I'm really putting a lot into this book, and I thought the publisher was gonna do that. That can be very surprising. The thing that traditional publishing does for people that doesn't happen in other well, it happens not as much in other forms of publishing. This is changing a little bit, as I'm sure you know, is distribution. That's a very nerdy insider factoid that traditional publishing is going to have distribution. You absolutely do not have that with self publishing. You have that sometimes with hybrid publishing, and that is really the key. So no matter which way you're going, you're going to be spending money to get your book out there.
Joelle Hann [00:19:16]:
With traditional publishing, you get the key distribution into places where you cannot reach yourself as a mere mortal. Think, like, big box stores, airports, things like that. A little bit of marketing support, but you're still doing that yourself.
Susan Friedmann [00:19:30]:
Yes. And the New York Times bestseller. Yeah. I think it's very hard as a a hybrid publisher to get a book on the New York bestseller list, but that's what people have in their mind. They feel that that is success if they make it to the New York Times bestseller list.
Joelle Hann [00:19:49]:
Yes. It's very interesting when I ask clients, what is your definition of success? And oftentimes, they're not sure. Sometimes, they say New York Times bestseller list, but sometimes it's something else.
Susan Friedmann [00:20:00]:
I had an interesting thing happen to me a couple of years ago that I'd written a for dummies book, and published by Wiley. After twenty years, they came back to me, and they said we need to redo the technical side because about 70% of the book was evergreen, but it was the technical side that obviously had changed quite dramatically over the last twenty years. They offered me the choice of either getting an advance and royalties or to take a lump sum and then not get any royalties. And I had not experienced that before. I must admit, I did take the lump sum just because, you know, I'd been earning royalties for twenty years, and I'm not sure if I'm gonna be around another twenty years. So I was like, maybe take a little less and get the lump sum. But that was an interesting differentiation that I'd not experienced before in previous proposals and acceptance. Let's touch very quickly on agents because I know that authors often write to agents, and it's crickets.
Susan Friedmann [00:21:17]:
They hear absolutely nothing, and they're so frustrated. Is there a magic formula? How do you get an agent to pay attention?
Joelle Hann [00:21:26]:
That is my number one blog post or LinkedIn post or Instagram post is how do I get an agent? It's a really popular question. And as you say, it can be a really frustrating process. There is no surefire way, but there are some best practices. One is to write a really excellent proposal and query letter. Really study how it's done and do that because agents are busy. They're busy, busy, busy. They have 700 emails unanswered in their inbox that they need to get through in any given week. You can imagine that kind of pressure, plus they're reading client work, and they're having meetings, and so on and so on, and they work on commission.
Joelle Hann [00:22:05]:
They are busy. If they don't get back to people, it is mostly because they don't have time. It feels personal as a writer, but it's not personal on their end. Sometimes it does seem pretty whimsical and what to do about that. Having a great query letter, having a great proposal, knowing what those things are and having those, that's gonna help you a lot. Someone who just finished my program got interest from agents at a time when no one would recommend you querying, which is right around Christmas. He had at least three very interested agents and was able to sign with one around New Year's. I know that this does work, and he was cold pitching, not getting introduced through somebody he knew.
Joelle Hann [00:22:47]:
That said, network is absolutely, absolutely the best way to get introduced to an agent or editor, and that just means talking to your friends, talking to your followers, talking to your clients, your family, who knows somebody, who can introduce somebody, who might be a good fit, going to conferences, meeting agents there, making connections. Going through your network is going to help you a lot. It's just the same as if there was a job opening and someone who was already at that workplace said, hey. I know that person. He would be great for that job. That's a warm introduction. That person is likely to get an interview because there is some pathway that makes it easier for the agent to say, okay. Let me take a look at that.
Joelle Hann [00:23:33]:
This comes recommended from somebody I know and somebody I trust. Doing your networking, doing your homework, getting connected, following the rules of the game, this all is gonna really help you. And then, of course, not treating every agent as the same. This is very tempting to do because you might have never met this person. You might have only seen them as a listing in Publishers Marketplace or query tracker or something like that. But they are in fact a person and they don't want to be addressed as if they're not. They want some personalization. They want their name to be spelled correctly.
Joelle Hann [00:24:07]:
You might do all these things and not hear back, but these are best practices. And many cases, this leads to a response. Even if it's not the response you want, you get some kind of response, then you know you're doing things right.
Susan Friedmann [00:24:19]:
Yes. Even getting a response, that's, as you say, I mean, that's a win. Because, as I said, I've heard this so many times. Oh, I never hear back from people. Well, this is a great segue, Joelle, to talk about how our listeners can find out more about you, your services, your academy. I know you've mentioned that a few times. Take it away.
Joelle Hann [00:24:43]:
Yeah. Great. Thank you. I run a program called Book Proposal Academy, as I've mentioned. This is a very small program, meaning we're about five to 10 people in any given cohort. It's very high touch, meaning I'm really in there with people teaching, giving feedback, giving comments, answering questions. It's a six month program to help people write a book proposal. That's sort of the top level aim of it, but the bottom level aim of it is really to help people understand what it means to be an author and then become an author.
Joelle Hann [00:25:17]:
There's much more than just writing a proposal. It's also about mindset. It's also about writing craft. It's about how do you structure a book. It's about writing chapters. We wanna do these things, but we actually don't know how to do them until we're faced with a task. And then it could be just deer in the headlights where you're staring at that blank screen and don't know what to do next. Don't know how all the parts work together.
Joelle Hann [00:25:41]:
Writing a proposal is not as much fun as writing a book, but it's a really essential part of the process that will help empower people as authors and also make it obvious to agents and editors why they need to work with you. It's a super important process. The cohorts I work with are super bonded. People really support each other as we go through the learning process and the ups and downs of figuring out how to do this author thing. And so it ends up being really fun. We're very connected. I just had before this podcast interview an alumni call. I have over 70 people who've gone through the program, and we get to share our wins and challenges.
Joelle Hann [00:26:22]:
And and it really inspires everyone to keep going or feel proud of what they've done. So my program really works. I'm super proud of that. I'm very happy to work with people working on memoirs and nonfiction books in Pro the Proposal Academy, and we are actually just starting enrollment. It's February 2025, and we are starting enrollment now for our only cohort in 2025, which begins in the March. So I'm very excited to welcome people on right now.
Susan Friedmann [00:26:55]:
And that'll all go in the show notes and give us a contact. Is there a website? How can they find out more?
Joelle Hann [00:27:02]:
So I am Brooklyn Book Doctor, Brooklyn like the place, bookdoctor.com. That is my website. You can find me at Brooklyn Book Doctor on Instagram, and LinkedIn is under my first and last name, Joelle Hamm. And if you look me up, you will find all the information about how to apply to Book Proposal Academy. People learn a lot just filling out the application, which is not complicated, but like you said, Susan, it asks you the important questions that you need to think about, and that itself is a learning process. Yes. You can also email me, [email protected], and I will get right back to you.
Susan Friedmann [00:27:42]:
Again, I'll put all of that in the show notes if they weren't able to write that down. And as you know, we always have our guests leave our listeners with a golden nugget. You've shared some great information. Can we get something extra?
Joelle Hann [00:27:57]:
Of course. Writing a book is really crossing a bridge from your own excitement about your idea or your story to having something to put out into the world. And as a part of crossing that bridge, the transformation that really is essential to becoming an author is understanding that your insights or your story are an act of service. You are in service to your readers. So you start feeling like you're completely on your own side, and then you end up feeling like you're completely on your reader side, and you're in service to their journey of growth or understanding or development in this world. And that's what it means to become an author.
Susan Friedmann [00:28:41]:
I love that you said that because it's interesting. I recently wrote an article about that exact subject is that you are of service to your readers. You're giving them value. You're giving them something that they need, they want, they didn't know they needed or wanted. You never know. Absolutely. That's wonderful. Well, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom.
Susan Friedmann [00:29:04]:
And listeners, if your book isn't selling the way you want it or expect it to, let's jump on a quick call together to brainstorm ways to ramp up those sales because you've invested a whole lot of time, money, and energy, and it's time you got the return you were hoping for. So go to bookmarketingbrainstorm.com to schedule your free call. And in the meantime, I hope this powerful interview sparks some ideas you can use to sell more books. Until next week, here's wishing you much book and author marketing success.
